Join In On The Action "Register Here" To View The Forums

Already a Member Login Here

Board index Forum Index
User avatar
Indy Car Driver (Pro IV)
 
Posts: 6649
Joined: 08 Apr 2002, 9:45 am

Post 19 Dec 2020, 3:22 pm

I use the term collusion loosely. It may include explicit, overt, covert, tacit, meta-gaming, or simple favoritism.

Here is Part V of the current Redscape House Rules as a reference:

Part V.png
Rally Racer (Pro III)
 
Posts: 15
Joined: 22 Sep 2016, 7:54 am

Post 20 Dec 2020, 11:44 am

Taken from a discussion from the current P1 group driving Hockenheim:

I have been requested to publish my philosophy on slip streaming and the trading of slips.

I posted this turn to finish in front of Welage (see below track), when I didn't have to. I want to be clear; I am finishing in front of him for two separate long range strategic reasons that apply beyond this race.
(1) Ling is, I think, more of a threat to beat me out of the Redscape title than Welage is, so pushing Ling back to third is in my long-range interests, Welage simply benefits from this and has nothing to say about it. I think I can beat Welage this race, I still have some skill left (and the patented pinulator!), so my best odds to win the overall title seem to be to hope I finish first, of which I seem to have maybe a 60-40 chance to do AND hope that Welage finishes ahead of Ling, pushing him back, hopefully, to third place points.
The worst case, I hope, will be I finish second and Ling finishes third. 60-40 is a long way from a lock, but in order to win titles (not just a race), I go with the math and hope for the best.
(2) And, I also feel a strong obligation to give a slip back to Welage, and by doing so that also moves to affect my long-term interests in that I'm sending a message to other drivers, "if I get a slip from you, I am more than likely to give it back even when it hurts." That kind of 'silent' cooperation is totally legal. It's just an announcement of sorts of my driving style. "I'm not going to take your slip and then deny you one."
Now one could argue about Welage "giving" me anything. It's more about what he hasn't done than what he has done. He hasn't taken extra efforts to deny me a slip in this race, he just maximizes his progress down the track, with or without me. When he does this race after race, I come to expect it and I have an obligation to do the same as it benefits us both from time to time, and not always both of us in the same race.
I believe that on some tracks, this one in particular, a viable strategy is for 180 top cars, whoever they are, to trade slips, the more cars doing this the better. Trading slips moves both cars around faster each lap and allows them to catch a rabbit leader who bought the pole and has a big lead. It doesn't always work, but it's a viable strategy on some tracks.
In general, my belief is that trading slips, in the long run, is consistently better than not trading slips.
So, if I was a win-at-all-costs kind of driver, I would not have finished in front of Welage this turn and denied him a space, after I just slipped him for two spaces. But I would rather pay Welage back and hope in future races he does the same for me even if it might hurt me in this one race. There are many races in the future, so I'm going to go with my long-range math. A secondary philosophy I have is that cars who are definitely in the back of the pack should never deliberately slow each other down. It's hard enough to win from the rear as it is.
That's my philosophy. And, if you have given me a slip, even in prior races, and I have not yet returned it, please feel free to remind me before or during a race.
I am fully aware that not everyone shares my philosophy and I respect that.

Don Tatum
Rally Racer (Pro III)
 
Posts: 15
Joined: 22 Sep 2016, 7:54 am

Post 20 Dec 2020, 11:48 am

There was also some spirited discussion in the P1 group about the practice of trading slips.
Some people think it is clearly a bad thing, other people, like myself and apparently most of the drivers in Italy, view it as just a situational strategy. A strategy that just makes sense at times in that since double slips are a part of the rules, two cars trading double slips is well, good for those two cars and a smart way to play a group game.
Trading slips is, I think, a legitimate way for cars starting in the back to have a chance to win. It's already hard enough to win from the back on almost any track you pick, especially when you have 12 cars in the race.
Therefore, I cannot view trading slips as being right or wrong, good or bad; it's just an individual decision on how to play a group game.
There is another area of mutual disagreement that pertains more to how different people play group games. CFR is not a 3 person game where one player doing something other than strictly playing to win that one game would be bad for the game. CFR has 10-12 people per race, there are multiple races in a season and there are multiple seasons in the future.
After playing many group games with the same individuals over many years, you may be tempted to not crush those individuals who have chosen at times not to crush you just for the fun of it. That can be labeled as 'favoritism' and it can be judged to be bad for the game; but those are fairly naked attempts to impose one's own opinions on multi-player games on other people.
Reputations in CFR are built, like it or not, both for ruthlessness and for cooperation. Reputations built on the individual's driving style and their approach to how group games should be played.
For me, ruthlessness is counter productive--in the long term that extends beyond the current race one is in. Likewise, a reputation for cooperation is, in my opinion, a smart thing to do--in the long term that extends beyond the current race one is in.
Now you may abhor the trading of slips (cooperation) but embrace ruthlessness. Both decisions will affect the race and the other drivers. While I abhor senseless ruthlessness, I will not vote to ban it because it is not my place to judge someone one else on how they legally play a group game.
You may also abhor someone who will show mercy or cooperation on another driver in a future race when maybe he should not. But again, this is one person trying to judge another player as "playing the group game wrong."
CFR is a group game. CFR is a continuing competition and as long as people's names are attached to their cars, reputations will be built. There is no wrong way nor right way to play CFR, there are only the rules of the game.
The recent online P1 discussion got a little 'heated.' Well, that's what happens when you judge other people as being wrong or assume that your views on how a group game should be played are matched by everyone else. Some people don't like to be judged!
It's fine to have a different opinion, it's fine to disagree in a discussion, but please try to be aware of the difference between facts/rules and personal beliefs; especially in a large group game like CFR.
So far, I have not yet heard a compelling argument why trading slips or showing mercy on drivers who have shown you mercy is somehow 'bad' for the game of CFR. I have only heard that some people think it is bad, that it might lead to something bad and other speculation.
Meanwhile, trading slips seems like it's just a good strategy in a big ongoing group game; and I'm not talking about one race, I'm talking about at least a season. Player A has a better chance of winning the tournament if he trades more slips than anyone else. Player A also thinks that the best way to get slips is to give slips. Player A realizes that some players will consistently give slips, and some never will (their reputations precede them); and this influences who he pulls in front of.
You can disagree with that way to play an ongoing group game, but please don't label it as "wrong" or "bad for the game" just because you don't play group games in a cooperative strategic style.
An important point here, I think, is that trading slips is legal. So if you want to demonstrate that trading slips is "bad", then the burden of proof is on you, and you need to offer some evidence to prove your case. Anything less is, I think, is just your personal approach on how to play a group game.
User avatar
Indy Car Driver (Pro IV)
 
Posts: 6649
Joined: 08 Apr 2002, 9:45 am

Post 30 Dec 2020, 8:17 am

FYI: Here are the experimental rules we are using in the Adelaide benefit race, along with some brief comments.

------------------

The ‘passing' car may not be allowed to dictate which lane he ends in unless it is associated with one of three conditions:

1. Another car has the potential to be in the same lane.
2. Positioning for a racing line (if specified in the plot or personal defaults).
3. Positioning for a potential slip (if specified in the plot).

Please note that under current Redscape House rules, you are NEVER automatically put on racing lines or set up behind another car. It should be standard practice for all Redscape drivers to indicate ending lane preference (setting up slips or racing lines) so the above rule should not present a problem for ‘passing’ cars.

Final lane placement with multiple options: The outermost lane that does not disadvantage the car will be selected by the RM.

--------------------

Some reasoning: The spirit of the rule is to prevent working with another driver, thus a a passing car cannot pick which he/she gives a slip to. I’ve chosen the outermost lane for car placement to replicate a driver trying to ’shake’ another driver.
User avatar
Dignitary
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: 15 Sep 2001, 10:27 am

Post 11 Jan 2021, 3:13 pm

I don't really understand why this is so complicated.

Don't have lists of people you will/won't work with - and if you do insist on it then please publish them.
Don't waste wear or speed in order to block someone in a corner.

The first of these things is difficult to police and tbh I'm not sure a massive problem but Dons position is getting incredibly close to breaking if not the letter then certainly the spirit of the rules - it's a really grey area. This is the line that gets me:
And, if you have given me a slip, even in prior races, and I have not yet returned it, please feel free to remind me before or during a race.


I mean what does that even mean? You're gonna trade slips from race to race...that can't be right can it? Surely that is clearly wrong?

For the avoidance of doubt, I have no problem with player A sending a public email to player B saying 'lets trade slips this lap'. There is nothing wrong with that, its out in the open and everyone can see it is happening. What I have a problem with is this hidden agenda that Don seems to have with certain players. Just call it out publicly and agree the deal in front of everyone. Its really not that difficult to do.

The second of these is IMHO a much bigger problem but can quite easily be made illegal with accurately written rules - I don't really understand why it is not in the rules that you cannot limit your own movements in order to block other drivers. I know you cannot plot below the corner speed but if a line is open you should have to use it, you also shouldn't be able to waste a wear in order to brake and then block someone in the corner when you could have just used the wear to be one space further forward.
Rally Racer (Pro III)
 
Posts: 15
Joined: 22 Sep 2016, 7:54 am

Post 11 Jan 2021, 4:06 pm

Actually, it's not complicated, Mr. Ling, you are attempting to tell me how I should play a highly interactive large group player game and I simply disagree with you; I fail to see the complexity. And while I respect your opinion, I do not respect your attempt to label my approach as "wrong."

Once again, we have someone using the word "wrong" in a highly subjective fashion. Please do not try to label other people "wrong" when they are playing by the rules in a large multi-player game that carries over from race to race and from year to year.

If you think the rules are "wrong" then take it up with the game designer. There is no "wrong" or "right", this is a multi-player game and different people play multi-player games in different ways.

Your approach, Mr. Ling, is to try your best to pretend that no one has a reputation from race to race and no one should use situational strategies to their advantage that you don't approve of.

Please realize that is YOUR approach and other people are not wrong simply because they use a different approach. They are different, not wrong. I'm not wrong, but you appear to be quite judgemental.

And neither do I have a "hidden agenda". I just announced my desire to trade slips as we submit builds for the next race which is, I believe, what you requested I do. I like to trade slips, that's not a secret. Some other people (some not in this Redscape group of 13) also like to trade slips.

As for your last paragraph where you complain about people not using lines and going slower than they have to, you seem to really want to play a game other than the one we are playing and have played for decades. How long have you been playing Speed Circuit/CFR? I don't think you 'get' it.