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Truck Series Driver (Pro II)
 
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Post 30 Apr 2015, 4:35 am

[EDIT by Mike] I'm separating out the opinions on rules that were posted in the EOG's for Spa. It's labeled part II since there is already an old rules thread but I don't necessarily think everyone needs to read through all that.

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Hi to all,
first of all, scuse me for my poor English.
I will try to explain my tought about the game and NOT for this race that anyway strongly shows my tought itself.
I play speed circuit from many years, and I played many different kind of rules with people from many countries.
The rules where deeply modified from many "designers" like Doug, Charlie Heckman, Dale Martin, end so on, MYSELF included, and every designer has setup different MODS (or rules and tracks) reflecting their (and their friends) way to play. So very INTERSTING or NOT variants where published.
The first thing to say about this game is : Many drivers (like many USA drivers ) play this game like a wargame (carwars) and NOT like a race game. This "taste" to play is fully showed by the Doug's rules and tracks, that were made more to fight during a race than run. I have discussed more and more with Doug, and obviously everyone did not change his mind. So many things like the "skills" leave me stunned...... this skills are more a divine intervention than an abiliy (that is our own skill to play).
In a real Formula 1 race each driver has the right to defend (DEFEND!!!) his position against another driver, BUT to spin to not let him pass is ....... for wargamers, and in a real life a suicide. A spun car is generally set a side the track. Also the tables to roll are "easy" and a luky driver may roll many and many times with the same chances to pass the check. I'm not complaining of my luck, the chance table is mandatory to simulate an hazard, but there are many ways to do it better.
For me this is a race game and not a fight game, and should win the faster\better palyer, even if the whole pack of Doug's rules and tracks are for me really good!.

Fabio
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Rally Racer (Pro III)
 
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Post 30 Apr 2015, 5:37 am

Fabio, you are a much more experienced player than I am and I certainly respect your opinion on the game. I do have some thoughts on the issues you bring up but take them with a grain of salt due to my inexperience.

Skill points: The AH game didn't have them so I only first encountered SP's when I started up in the hobby again in Doug's races. They present an additional strategic challenge in terms of when to use them (start bid or during the race) and certainly do lead to greater use of the tables (see below for table effects). My guess, and this is only a guess, is that the skill points enable the rear cars in a full field of 12 to actually have a chance at winning. Maybe Chris and/or Doug could discuss the SP's and why they are in the game.

The tables: The success rates in most of Doug's tables (the one's we use now) are identical to the rates in the AH game: There is a 16.67% failure probability on the Top/Acc/Dec tables although you can cut that in half with the expenditure of 1 SP. Doug's chance table is actually a bit more difficult with only a 41.67% success probability compared to 50% in the AH game. The SP's do make them easier, however, and 1 SP on the chance table ups the probability of success on the chance table to 58.33%.

Regarding spins - nobody in this race intentionally did it to block the track but that was the effective outcome. The problem with spun cars moved to the side is that you may end up with more cars in a row than spaces. Interesting proposition, though.

For now, I've no intention of diverging from Doug's basic rules other than what we already do regards defaults for missing plot elements and NPR's. If anyone wishes to run a race with experimental rules, I encourage you to do it. You have my full support and could use the Redscape site for the race (including the granting of rank points if you care about that).

I don't agree with your belief that Doug turned a racing simulation into a wargame - what happened on the track could have just as easily happened under the AH rules. Well, with the exception of the forced pass which I think is an outstanding addition to the game. If anything, it's the league set-up that led to my aggressiveness in the race. I needed to finish ahead of you to win the season. Imagine what's going to happen in the third race of next season when being in the bottom six earns you a demotion - there will be many cars jockeying for position with much to gain and/or lose with every GP point.
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Truck Series Driver (Pro II)
 
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Post 30 Apr 2015, 6:38 am

Mike,
it is not a question of experience, but a taste question........
the avalon hill rules itself are faulty...... you can roll many and many times at the 50% end be safe.....
we have introduce the reliability, so every time you roll you got a + 1 for the next roll and so on......in this way you may force a limited number of times........
when a car spin the car is not sitting in the corner......
the skill are too powerful for the tables, and they can be used for all the caracteristics ( acc dec top corner) so rolling dice is too much important than driving, also skill are used for the starting grid instead to use the pole position rule.
Doug's rules allowed to accelerate from last square corner, this is wrong and also allowes to the drivers to block the corner to the other players....
The matter is too wide for my English, and for a simple forum.
Anyway if I play in a "foreing" championship I fully accept the rules, with fun !

Fabio
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Post 30 Apr 2015, 8:09 am

fabio, i am curious about the build charts you use.also your thoughts on doug's build charts john w
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Post 30 Apr 2015, 8:26 am

kidegan wrote:fabio, i am curious about the build charts you use.also your thoughts on doug's build charts john w

Fabio sent his rules set to me via email. I will forward them to you unless he gets there first.
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Post 30 Apr 2015, 8:28 am

FYI - This is essentially a discussion that would pertain to season 3. We will be using the current season 1 rules set for season 2. Kal and I have some minor changes and clarifications to make but nothing that alters the core of gameplay. We'll announce those soon.
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Post 30 Apr 2015, 8:31 am

Fabio,

I'm sure that you and I have had this discussion before, but I've always played that a car could accelerate if they are in the last space of the corner and I've been playing since AH released the game.

The AH rules states: A car that has not completed a corner during a move may not elect to increase its speed in the following turn should that increase exceed posted speed or arrow limits.

What is not defined in the rules, is what is meant by "not completed a corner". In my way of looking at this rule, if a car is in the last space of the corner then it has completed the corner, the next space has no posted speed so the car can accelerate. Your interpretation is that a car must be in a space without a posted speed to complete the corner. Language will always leave some room for interpretation and making a set of rules that everyone clearly interprets many times will take more than a simple statement. I'm not trying to get into a debate on the rule, just pointing out that the old AH rules leave room for interpretation.

Another great example of differing views was the discussion Chris and I had on changing lanes in a corner. There are two interpretations of the rules surrounding changing lanes and the wording can be interpreted to support both cases.

I said all this to say, that I don't think Doug's acceleration rule is wrong and blocking the corner is part of the strategy of this game, the fact that forced passing is included, does add an option for drivers that are behind to make a move and pass someone that is blocking a corner.
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Truck Series Driver (Pro II)
 
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Post 30 Apr 2015, 10:46 am

doug's rules( i guess doug is the abner doulbleday of speed circuit) are meant for w.b.c.. the idea is to allow novice players and even first timers to be able to play and even compete (in theory). the object is to never roll the dice, and roll only when forced to roll. the game is the same,but people play different than in past,by rolling a lot. yes fabio, when all the stars lined up and i won w.b.c. wood because i was able to roll under a seven late in the race(it was a hard 6 i rolled),that does not mean i was lucky,it meant i was the best player that day. the dice can not win the race alone. i have played other versions, so to me it is 6 or a half dozen.
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Post 30 Apr 2015, 8:17 pm

The acceleration in the last space of the corner issue was actually addressed in All Star Replay Vol 2 Issue 3 on page 28. In an article titled "Driving to Win in Speed Circuit" by J.L. Burnett he addressed the cornering issue: "One of the main points of confusion concerning Speed Circuit is the change of speed in a corner. As a simulation of real driving techniques, a car is allowed to increase it's speed on the last corner space." He provides more info on cornering in this paragraph.

He goes on to propose suggested changes to the rules, including the following on spins:

1. Spinoffs

Due to the nature of most spins, a car ends up on one side of the track or the other. Therefore, when a car spins, it is placed to next to the side of the track next to the space where the spinout occurred. The car may start with a diagonal move the next turn at its start speed. The car must move last that turn. If the space it is to moved into is occupied, speed may be built up but no move made (an official would be present to re-start the car safely).

I think it's important to note that the first discussion was a clarification the existing AH rules, while the second item was a suggested change.

I thought this information might be valuable in this discussion.
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Truck Series Driver (Pro II)
 
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Post 30 Apr 2015, 9:33 pm

no penalty in last space of corner has been the rule(w.b.c. in usa) for many years.the rule doug changed in the last few years was the ability to slip even if your car was in last space of the corner.

why do some people was it more like real formula 1? other than breakdowns, would not finish be about the same as the positions after the 1 st corner?
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Post 01 May 2015, 12:59 am

For me,
it is not an Avalon Hill rules question.
We simply play a different game with the core of speed circuit, so all the variants made from Doug or from any designer deeply change the game.
I simply agree with the whole pack of Doug's design, because it is well balanced with his track.
The way to play of this game is more fighting than driving and running, so also I play this way, it is not my taste, it is not my idea of a racing game, but it is anyway fun for me.

Finally. my taste of play end design is "stunned" from many wrong (for me) things\rules added to this game. The skills are not skills but tables modifiers, so you can roll without risk using a 3s....... (why?) or roll at 90% of risk... too much for me
the forced pass is a "silly" way to take over a car, if the designer wont, he may design a 3 wide lane (like real tracks today), it has no meaning to have a stack of a single car for square , design a 2 wide track and after use a forced pass with no space, make simply a 3 lane the faster player will pass......
The bid for pole is another "silly" thing, it is more "real" to do the pole lap, and if you wont to risk "roll that dice" during the pole lap... if you fail will start rear...like a real race. The pole lap will be different from any player with different cars and their own ability.
I must stop here for my limited English and also for the huge argumentation to do.
I struggle a lot in the translation and often I doubt of not being able to properly express my thoughts.
I don't wont to change Doug rules, they are good, and tracks are well designed for them, if you change the rules maybe you must change also the tracks to respect the many parameters involved in a good project.
To change something is a designer work.
I am a games designer but I simply wont change my games NOT other's. ;-)
So I write very often to Doug, simply to explain my thought and to know his.

Fabio
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Post 01 May 2015, 1:21 am

kidegan wrote:fabio, i am curious about the build charts you use.also your thoughts on doug's build charts john w


John,
as I said many times, Doug's rules and tracks are a good pack to play.
He has a special way to design, for the USA player taste of fighting, the wear are NOT enough to complete the 3 laps so you must risk sometimes rolling for any kind of special situation you need.
The only thing is that the chart is too low for the top speed, but it is not the chart but the whole pack rules\tracks.... you cannot have a good race balance with the 200mph top speed, the 20 acc is not useful like the 80mph dec BUT I know that it was set more for aesthetic.
Also my table has the 20acc and 80dec , but mine tracks allows to reach easy the 200 top speed also with a fair acceleration.
@Mike,
if you want you can publish mine rules. Only for curiosity and not to change other's rules.

Fabio
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Post 01 May 2015, 1:34 am

Hi to all,
a note for speed circuit fan and also facebook users.
I have a group called "Speed Circuit and Racing Board Games" on FB,

https://www.facebook.com/groups/52264093816/

we post photo of "live" games and championships and discuss about "racing games",
join us if you like,
you can also ask to me the friendship

https://www.facebook.com/fabio.pelle.9

Fabio
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Post 03 May 2015, 6:24 pm

fabio,i agree, world in flames is a better game than axis and allies. that does not mean than axis and allies is not a great game,or is "silly"because some rule is not as realistic as real ww 2.
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Post 15 Jul 2015, 3:09 pm

Spinouts:

So when consulting the AH rules I saw that I'd restart at start speed or acceleration, but the new modified rules have you take for the lower of the two. How does that even itself out when bidding for car qualities in the beginning if the start speed advantage in spinouts is lost for those who bid for a high start speed?