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How should we conduct lane changes in corners (see attachment in first post)?

Only allow for lane changes when the new space is at a true diagonal to the old one (red arrow only).
6
67%
Allow for lane changes as long as the new space is advanced further than the old one, even if not a true diagonal (red & black arrows).
3
33%
 
Total votes : 9
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Post 09 Sep 2014, 12:33 pm

I split out the discussion on lane changes for more clarity. I'll be putting up a poll here on the issue soon.

Changing lanes in corners:

You can change lanes when the spaces are at a true diagonal (touch at one spot only).

The question is, can you move to a different lane even when there is a shared border? Based on feedback from Doug (when I tried it in his COTA race), you cannot do this - it would be viewed as a horizontal move. I'll make a final ruling on this after some feedback from the field. It won't become relevant for at least another turn.

Thanks to Tim for bringing this up!

Mike

Attachment corresponding to the poll question
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Post 09 Sep 2014, 10:15 pm

Let me try and list the different rules that come into for this question and give an example on the question. The issue at hand is changing lanes in a corner where corner spaces are not aligned.

Let's use the next to last corner on the track as an example. The corner consists of 3 squares, the inside lane is marked at 60 MPH and the two outside squares are marked at 80 MPH. The last 80 and the 60 squares are aligned at the front edge of their spaces line up, (Redscape rule 13) so these two squares are in the same row. This would seem to indicate that the first 80 square is in the previous row from both these squares and a car could move to either square. This provides flexibility to drivers, would you want to brake (1 wear) or move from the first 80 space to the 60 space for 1 wear.

AH rules state that cars must always move forward and may change lanes at any times. (AH rule 3.3)

WBC rules have this as an optional rule, these rules can be found here: http://lucidphoenix.com/sc/rules/rulesn ... ip=y&pbe=y

Section II, M has it stated this way:

Optional Lane Change Rules: Cars may move diagonally when the front edge of adjacent spaces do not line-up. This move is relatively intuitive, however make sure that a diagonal move not allow a move where the back edge of the space being moved to is in front of the front edge of the space being moved from.

It's my recommendation for maximum flexibility that the WBC optional rule be adopted.
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Post 10 Sep 2014, 5:47 am

Heh... that rule is even highlighted on the WBC rules set.

Given that fine discovery and my agreement in the preference for flexibility over rigidity, I think I can safely put this one to bed. I'll make the change on the Redscape rules set and send out the clarification with the next results email.
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Post 10 Sep 2014, 7:02 am

SLOTerp wrote:Heh... that rule is even highlighted on the WBC rules set.

Given that fine discovery and my agreement in the preference for flexibility over rigidity, I think I can safely put this one to bed. I'll make the change on the Redscape rules set and send out the clarification with the next results email.


Not that you need my affirmation, but I think this is the right move, Mr. RM.
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Post 27 Oct 2014, 5:47 pm

SLOTerp wrote:Heh... that rule is even highlighted on the WBC rules set.

"Given that fine discovery and my agreement in the preference for flexibility over rigidity, I think I can safely put this one to bed. I'll make the change on the Redscape rules set and send out the clarification with the next results email.
"

Sometimes rigidity is exactly what is required. Cars don't slide sideways. If the spaces are not aligned, you may not change lanes. The entries into various corners are carefully crafted. Sometimes you are destined into one "lane" or another by prior choice. If you allow sideways moves then you defeat a large aspect of the track design.
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Post 27 Oct 2014, 6:17 pm

Rando wrote: Sometimes rigidity is exactly what is required. Cars don't slide sideways. If the spaces are not aligned, you may not change lanes. The entries into various corners are carefully crafted. Sometimes you are destined into one "lane" or another by prior choice. If you allow sideways moves then you defeat a large aspect of the track design.

You're kind of late on this particular discussion, Randy. We're onto the one Chris described.
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Post 28 Oct 2014, 9:23 am

Since Randy did bring up the lane change issue (changing lanes in corners), I think it's worth a re-visit.

The ruling was that lane changes would be allowed even when the car is not moving on a pure diagonal, as seen below with the black arrow. This seemed to be consistent with WBC rules. In hindsight, I'm not completely comfortable with that rule and would like to get your thoughts on modifying it to prevent such moves, at least in races here at Redscape. As Randy pointed out, cars cannot slide sideways and that seems like what the car is doing. I'm fine with the red arrow case, where the car is in a corner but changing lanes at a true diagonal. My proposal would allow for red-arrow lane changes but prohibit black-arrow lane changes for races going forward. The original interpretation would, of course, stand for the remainder of this race.

Randy's comment which was left in the general discussion thread:
And NO, cars do not move sideways. we have brakes for that (or emergency braking in its various forms with various potential penalties.) When corners are drawn by the track-maker so as to disallow changing lanes in a corner, that is designed that way for a reason. I emphatically do not want to see "sideways" movement.


Todd's comment which was left in the general discussion thread:
As for the corner lane change, I tend to side with tcbaker07 on that. But not emphatically. I can live with either variation.
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Post 28 Oct 2014, 10:29 am

I'm still in support of the rule as was interpreted and specified in the existing rules. Cars do swerve to avoid cars at times during a race. I'll post an example of a track where this would be a real problem in a bit.
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Post 28 Oct 2014, 8:25 pm

I'm going to state my case for changing lanes in a corner with offset corners.

Here are the rules that I think apply to the movement in the corner.

First 1977 AH Rule 3.4 states that a car may never move horizontally.

Second from RGPR rule 14 cars are considered to be in the same row when the front edge of the spaces line up.

Based on these two rules, a sideways move would be a move between two spaces with the front edge lined up in my opinion.

So let's look at this section of the track:

Track Corner 2.gif


Based on our rules above, the last 3 spaces of the straightway are aligned and thus comprise a row, the inside 60 lane and the second 80 space on the outside are aligned, so they are a row. This leaves the first 80 space that has to be in it's own row between the other two rows described above.

So let's consider 3 cars, one in the 60 space, one in the first 80 space and one in the last straightaway. Clearly the car in the 60 space will move first, the car in the 80 space will move second and the car on the straightaway will move last.

Since this establishes that the first 80 space is not in the same row as the 60 space that is a legal move and is not a sideways move. As a driver, you veer sharply to the left and put stress on your car hence the additional wear point required if you make this move.

I disagree that the developers drew this corner and intended that a lane change couldn't be made in the turn.

I have spend a lot of time with Grand Prix-cision Racing software and plotted most of the tracks available to use with this program. When you plot a track there are a couple of things you need to know, the max rows and the speed rows are input into the plotter for this track the max rows is 68 and the speed rows is 60. These are calculated by counting a path around the track using the longest path thru the corners and the shortest path thru the corners. Plotting is done a lane at a time, and when you come to a short corner, null spaces are put into the rows to "fill" spaces that were not included. BTW, GPR allows lane changes as described in our current rules.

I Emphatically disagree that this is a sideways move and it should be allowed.
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Post 29 Oct 2014, 11:37 am

Slipstreaming

It appears as though people are not really in favor of the change, so I guess that's that. I don't particularly like the added layer of potential strategy because I don't believe it belongs. But I submit to the will of the group. And the point about forgetting to specify the inside if you want it is also valid.

Changing Lanes in Corners

Just to be clear, this is NOT allowed by WBC rules, either online or in person.

tcbaker07 wrote:I disagree that the developers drew this corner and intended that a lane change couldn't be made in the turn.


Well Doug Schulz is the one who designed that track, and I know for a fact that we do not play Speed Circuit with the ability to change lanes like you are suggesting. So I would have to say that you are wrong in your assumption.

Furthermore, this exact situation came up in F1 just a few turns ago. Someone spun out in front of a corner where lanes had already been decided. This resulted in a huge amount of carnage on the track because no one could get into the lane in front of the car. Because you cannot change lanes when the rows don't line up.

Not trying to take a side or anything. I really don't care which way we go with this. But there seemed to be some confusion on the WBC rules, and I wanted to set that straight. I have never played a game of Speed Circuit where the lane changing that tcbaker is suggesting was allowed.
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Post 29 Oct 2014, 12:13 pm

Please see the attached section of track, this is a section of a track from Accessory Pack 1 which was created by Avalon Hill's game designers. The track is Grosser Pries von Deutschland.

Track Corner 3.gif


There is no way to follow the line if you cannot change lanes when the spaces do not align. This clearly shows that the original designers intended that you can change lanes as long as there is forward progress being made.

The full track can be found here: http://boardgamegeek.com/image/79174/sp ... e=original

Why would the developers include a speed line that could not be followed?
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Post 29 Oct 2014, 12:30 pm

WBC does have an optional rule addressing changing lanes in the corners from my previous post:

WBC rules have this as an optional rule, these rules can be found here: http://www.lucidphoenix.com/sc/rules/rulesnew.asp?pit=y&slip=y&pbe=y

Section II, M has it stated this way:

Optional Lane Change Rules: Cars may move diagonally when the front edge of adjacent spaces do not line-up. This move is relatively intuitive, however make sure that a diagonal move not allow a move where the back edge of the space being moved to is in front of the front edge of the space being moved from.
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Post 29 Oct 2014, 2:10 pm

Here are two additional examples of corners that show the original game developers intent, while these are not as definitive as the corner with the speed line above they do drive one to the same conclusion. Here are the two corners, first one from British GP and the second from Austra GP.

Track Corner 4.png

Track Corner 5.png


Both of these corners have an 80 space sandwiched between two 60 spaces in one lane and a 60 space sandwiched in between two 80 spaces in the other lane. Notice that the 80 spaces in both lanes are connected based on the rules that we are using currently. If there is not the ability to change lanes in the corner then there is absolutely NO reason for making the 80 space in the middle 80 miles per hour. Clearly the original designers of these tracks were providing a way through the corner at 80 MPH.

From accessory Pack 1 full track pictures:

British Grand Prix
http://boardgamegeek.com/image/79175/sp ... e=original

Grosser Preis von Osterreich
http://boardgamegeek.com/image/79173/sp ... e=original
Last edited by tcbaker07 on 05 Nov 2014, 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post 29 Oct 2014, 4:47 pm

And Tim... you're presenting quite the case in support of your position.
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Post 30 Oct 2014, 9:28 am

I queried Doug to get his opinion on these issues. We're not trying to replicate what he does but I have great respect for his experience and stature in the hobby. He would have posted himself but was fooled by the registration question. Here's his response:

Topic 1) Lane changes. I did tinker and play some with the idea of changing lanes as long as forward progress is maintained but without an actual diagonal move. I think it is fine to play that way but I currently do not. Consequently, none of my tracks were designed with the more liberal lane changes in mind. However and without actually looking real closely at it, I don't think a change either way breaks anything. I'd go with driver / RM preference. Also, because it can be hard to explain, here is the text I have currently in the draft omnibus rules I am working on.

Car Movement

On its turn, each car moves 1 space for every 20 mph of its current speed.

Cars can move directly forward or diagonally forward. Cars may not move side-ways or backwards. That is all pretty straight forward in most places but things get a little more complicated when spaces don’t line up cleanly. Below are some examples of different cases.

Image

On the far left we see a typical 3-wide straight and the blue car’s available options.

The next two images across show different things that can happen when a track narrows from 3-wide to 2-wide. The second image from the left show that the blue car only has one space it can move to. It just can’t reach the inside, 60 space in the corner ahead. The middle image shows that the blue car can enter either the 80 or 60 space as it enters the corner.

The last two images above show a couple situations that come up when rows do not line up. This happens most often in the middle of corners, but can happen outside corners. You may only move diagonally when the front edge of the space you are leaving and the back edge of the space you are moving into line up. In the second from the right image, the blue car cannot move into the inside, 60 space in the corner. In the far right image, the blue car can change lanes. A visual trick to determine if you can change lanes is to look for the “+” – When spaces line up to allow a lane change their corners line up to form a “+” otherwise you get “T”s instead.

Topic 2: This piece was left in the general discussion thread.