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Post 27 Oct 2014, 6:09 pm

SLOTerp wrote:Should the default lane preference (ending position) be the slipstream instead of the inside lane? The issue came up in Turn 22 when Brad plotted lane 3 with a purported strategy of not giving the slip opportunity to Chris if Chris failed to specify such a preference (which is exactly what happened).* I will let Chris make his case for a rules change as he does it more elegantly than I.


For those of you that don't know, Brad specified in his plot that he would like to go to the outside lane. As for me, I did NOT specify that I want to line up behind Brad, so I got the inside lane and now I won't be getting a possible slip next turn.

Okay, so just from the start let me be clear that I'm not upset that Brad's move negatively impacted me. It was a very small impact, and my line is largely unaffected. And Brad didn't do anything wrong. He made a perfectly legal move within the bounds of the forum's rules. What I don't like is the meta nature of this particular move, which I would like to discuss.

It essentially boils down to the fact that it would never happen in real-life play. The person behind you is going to see where you are going and follow you, so it makes no sense to take an outer lane because it doesn't give you any benefit. Because of that, the *only* reason to do that in this forum race would be in the hopes that your fellow racer wasn't specific enough in their plot, and you hope to gain advantage from that.

A player isn't playing the game at that point, but rather they are playing the meta-game of the administrative system Mike uses to resolve our plots. The idea that you can make any sort of move of that nature, or use the administrative system against another player feels wrong to me. The system is put in place to help Mike facilitate moves, not to add another potential layer of strategy.

Anyway, that's my feeling on the issue. Again I just want to stress that no one did anything wrong, and I'm not trying to attack Brad or his move. I just dislike the meta layer that's been added to the game, and would like to see a change. If we decide to leave things as is, that's fine too, but I wanted to at least voice my concerns. Maybe it's just my background in the live game, but I just don't like it.
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Post 28 Oct 2014, 9:22 am

Actually, I was placing definitive sets of orders without variation or accounting for all possibilities. I started changing my orders after being prompted in the first race (the helping race!) by the RM.

I have no problem doing either way. The case of E-mail being adjudicated all together, and not the turn based progression of a live game, there is not a chance to change based upon emerging conditions. A person playing in a live game can make the decision to brake or slow speed and not have to emergency brake. In Email, that is certainly not possible, as it would lengthen the game by 10X !!!

I think the possibility of meta-gaming is everywhere(see the curve being blocked before the long straightaway on turn one!), but it is part of the game. I am glad you felt no intent, as there was none.
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Post 28 Oct 2014, 10:44 am

Back to the new discussion, the problem with changing the rule is that it just creates a new possibility of a problem. There are times when you want the inside lane instead of setting up for a slip stream. For example, If you are neck and neck with another driver then you have to decide whether to take the inside lane or set up for the slipstream. These are race time decisions and the default is specified in the PEBM rules that are used by WBC and Redscape. Since some drivers are in multiple races run by different groups,

I would tend to leave the default alone so people don't have to remember a different set of defaults for different groups and races.

I personally always specify where I want to be on the track, so I'm okay either way.
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Post 28 Oct 2014, 11:17 am

Regarding defaults on lane placement in other venues, I can't find any explicitly stated ones except in our rules.

However, the WBC rules do state that you have to ask for a slipstream (as we do) so that would jibe with having to ask for a slipstream opportunity as well.
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Post 28 Oct 2014, 11:19 am

And yes, Tim, you are always VERY specific as to where you want your car to be in every possible permutation that might arise on the racetrack. :eek:
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Post 28 Oct 2014, 3:04 pm

MIke, to be fair, I was not specific on my first couple of moves, that resulted in my asking why I ended up where I was on the track. After that I started being very specific when I had too, including one move that had 4 speed options (as I allowed for a failed speed roll) with as many as 11 options per speed. That was one crazy order!
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Post 28 Oct 2014, 3:10 pm

WBC Play-by-Mail rule #11: http://lucidphoenix.com/sc/wbce/

If you do not specify where you want to end in a row, the inside will be assumed no matter what your speed.
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Post 28 Oct 2014, 3:55 pm

tcbaker07 wrote:WBC Play-by-Mail rule #11: http://lucidphoenix.com/sc/wbce/

If you do not specify where you want to end in a row, the inside will be assumed no matter what your speed.



Yep, I think that is as it should be. OR, you may direct "set me up for a slip". Or you might direct from WHOM you want that (hopeful) slip. It was tricky but allowed that X plotted outside on the straight and Y didn't "automatically" get the slip. I'm comfortable with that.

And NO, cars do not move sideways. we have brakes for that (or emergency braking in its various forms with various potential penalties.) When corners are drawn by the track-maker so as to disallow changing lanes in a corner, that is designed that way for a reason. I emphatically do not want to see "sideways" movement.
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Post 28 Oct 2014, 5:39 pm

tcbaker07 wrote:WBC Play-by-Mail rule #11: http://lucidphoenix.com/sc/wbce/

If you do not specify where you want to end in a row, the inside will be assumed no matter what your speed.

Thank you Tim. I passed over that before.
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Post 29 Oct 2014, 4:31 am

My opinion on lane choice and slipstreaming is to stick with the WBC Play-by-Mail rule.

As for the corner lane change, I tend to side with tcbaker07 on that. But not emphatically. I can live with either variation.

Chris's comment from the split out topic on lane changes
Slipstreaming

It appears as though people are not really in favor of the change, so I guess that's that. I don't particularly like the added layer of potential strategy because I don't believe it belongs. But I submit to the will of the group. And the point about forgetting to specify the inside if you want it is also valid.
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Post 29 Oct 2014, 4:46 pm

I was thinking about how Chris said that in ftf you have the advantage of knowing what is in front of you (and thus would almost always take the slip). I haven't played ftf since I was a kid and never in the type of tourney setting that Chris plays in. I'm curious, Chris, in ftf can you do take-backs or is it more like the 'touch' rule in chess? If it's the former then what you say is true - you can play around with the car plot until you find what you want. If it's the latter then I could see where mistakes would be made, and you may not actually get that slip. Especially if you move the cars from space to space as that could lead to quite a few driver errors.

This also made me think of another area where you see differences in ftf versus PBEM. In PBEM you have to specify that you would like to emergency brake (if needed) prior to spending corner wear. Chris, you are very good at that but others not so and end up paying both the wear and the brake penalty. I imagine this does not come up in ftf for the same reasons you cite for the slips. If you know it's coming, you hit the brakes first. Although, if you had a 'touch' rule, it might be closer to PBEM.
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Post 29 Oct 2014, 7:17 pm

Mike,

See the Original 1977 rules, number 12 reaction time. This is an optional rule that sets a 10 sec time limit to move.

Tim
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Post 30 Oct 2014, 9:43 am

A note about lane placement: There will be a strict default, whichever way we go (inside or slip). Doug's practice of conditional placement leaves too much judgment in the RM's hand. I should not be influencing the car placements, especially considering the fact that I am also driving in the race.

The following was split out into the lane change topic. It belongs in both places but I just grabbed the relevant text
I queried Doug to get his opinion on these issues. We're not trying to replicate what he does but I have great respect for his experience and stature in the hobby. He would have posted himself but was fooled by the registration question. Here's his response:

Topic 2) I don't like when drivers try to do that -- move outside just to shake a slip. Usually it has no strategic value other than to take advantage of defaults in PBeM car placement. Rarely does anyone try to do that in an in-person race because the next guy will just line up behind you. There are rare situations where making someone pick between lining up behind you or taking the inside can be strategic, but its very very rare.

So, what I actually do (and I don't always update what's on the web site right away) is that my default is to line up for the slip but its conditional -- So my default is more like:

Line up for a slip unless lining up for a slip would give away inside position to someone who is already in this row or someone behind who has the speed to potentially end up in this row.

For example, if someone took a middle lane for some unknown reason and you now have a choice betwen outside with a possible slip next turn or inside... I put you inside. Or if your choice is inside or outside with a possible slip next turn and the guy 5 rows back is going 100, then I take inside because that guy will likely end up in your row and could take inside away from you. When there are corners between me and that guy -- any possible spending of wear or rolling of dice that would get him to my row counts for ditching the slip outside.

However, once you tell people that is how you are running things, they tend to spot bouncing outside for no reason.
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Post 31 Oct 2014, 5:32 am

SLOTerp wrote:I'm curious, Chris, in ftf can you do take-backs or is it more like the 'touch' rule in chess? If it's the former then what you say is true - you can play around with the car plot until you find what you want.


In physical play, we reveal all of our plots by flipping over notecards. And then, beginning from the front we resolve each move. Most of the time, that just involves moving the car the number of spaces. If you go through a corner or something, the person basically says which way they're going and then tosses in the appropriate amount of wear.

In the case where there is more than one choice of either how to get through a corner or where to line up behind someone, we list out the options for that person, and usually point (laying our fingers on the spaces) and wait for a decision. Once you make your decision, then we move onto the next person and it's pretty much too late to change your mind.