Join In On The Action "Register Here" To View The Forums

Already a Member Login Here

Board index Forum Index
User avatar
Rally Racer (Pro III)
 
Posts: 5583
Joined: 08 Apr 2002, 9:45 am

Post 31 Oct 2018, 11:37 am

How far back should the RM go to make a correction to resource counts (wear & skill)? This includes both over and under counts, which you could conceivably have different rules for.
User avatar
Dignitary
 
Posts: 1560
Joined: 15 Sep 2001, 10:27 am

Post 31 Oct 2018, 12:10 pm

I think its complicated.

I see the house rules suggest a 2-turn minimum for the window which seems sensible, anything in that 2-3 turn window should be fixed without question.

For longer durations I think once you hit the 4-5 turn region it starts to get difficult to ask for it. It can also depend on impact. Taking a wear off a guy with only 2W left going into the last corner is a bit different to doing it halfway through the second lap. I wonder if the window could be lap related, so longer in lap 1 and progressively shorter. Or maybe no corrections beyond the 2-turn minimum for the final lap?

It could also be related to the size of the adjustment. The way it was just implemented with the half wear penalty could be used in future. e.g. full adjustment if caught within 0-5 turns. Half penalty (rounded up) between 5-10. No penalty after that.

I think the treatment for over/under should be the same either way.

Dave
User avatar
Dignitary
 
Posts: 1560
Joined: 15 Sep 2001, 10:27 am

Post 01 Nov 2018, 11:30 am

something else to consider. The more lenient you are in terms of allowing fixes to previous mistakes the less likely players will feel the need to review things themselves.

If everyone knew you could only go back max 2 turns then players might check more often. I'm keen that some of the responsibility at least falls on the players.

A neater option could be a checkpoint at the end of each lap. Once you're into lap 2 anything that happened in lap 1 is locked in. If that were the case and you knew it was like a deadline approaching then I know I'd probably be inclined to do a few checks myself at the end of each lap and I'm sure others would too.
User avatar
Truck Series Driver (Pro II)
 
Posts: 58
Joined: 13 Jan 2015, 9:32 am

Post 04 Nov 2018, 12:02 pm

keeping track of your wear and skill is part of the game. it is unfair to other players if you do not spend an extra 2 minutes checking your totals. it should be hard core,after a turn or 2 ,sorry about your luck if you messed your self up,pay attention. somethings are impossible to get correct.
User avatar
Dignitary
 
Posts: 1560
Joined: 15 Sep 2001, 10:27 am

Post 04 Nov 2018, 7:22 pm

kidegan wrote:keeping track of your wear and skill is part of the game. it is unfair to other players if you do not spend an extra 2 minutes checking your totals. it should be hard core,after a turn or 2 ,sorry about your luck if you messed your self up,pay attention. somethings are impossible to get correct.


I'm not sure that is valid.

I think you are talking about face to face play. I have never played the f2f game but I understand you literally have physical tokens that you must hand in every turn you spend your wear. In that scenario yeh,an individual error is clearly the players fault and the punishment should be for the player.

However, and I have just reread the rules but please correct me if I'm wrong, for the email game there is a RM and there is nothing about players having a responsibility to track their own totals, it's certainly not something I've ever been asked explicitly to do. All players are responsible to check every adjudication for errors and have a window (unspecified timeframe at RM discretion) to notify the RM of any mistakes. We're all playing from the same single central set of charts.

So if any error gets through then it is the responsibility of every single player in the game.

That's how the current rules are written. If you want to change the rules then that's a separate issue and I wouldn't necessarily disagree but as the rules stand and more importantly how expectations have been set (at least in my experience) from playing online its not the same set up.
User avatar
Dignitary
 
Posts: 1560
Joined: 15 Sep 2001, 10:27 am

Post 06 Nov 2018, 10:57 am

another thought. And it looks like this is just a discussion with myself as no one else seems to be contributing, but anyway.

You might want to consider ensuring consistent treatment between ALL errors or clarifying what will get adjusted and what won't.

What do you do if a car moved too many/few spaces. Are you going to go back and rectify that?

Pretty much every boardgame I've ever played works on the basis that once a unit is on the board, or money has been spent, or cards have been picked or whatever, and everyone has agreed it (i.e. by moving to the next turn) then it's fixed, whether it was an error or not. The idea of going back a dozen turns to fix something just doesn't happen in board games.

If someone makes an error then by all means apply some form of punishment to that individual if it is deemed valid, but you really shouldn't go back and try and fix the game from that may turns ago. Its impossible to determine how that would have impacted the rest of the game.

Frankly I'd be embarrassed if I or anyone I knew well tried to get some to correct an error from that long ago, UNLESS its clearly in the rules that that's how things should be treated.
User avatar
Rally Racer (Pro III)
 
Posts: 5583
Joined: 08 Apr 2002, 9:45 am

Post 06 Nov 2018, 2:59 pm

I'm reading, Dave.

There is a difference between trying to correct car placement and trying to correct resources. I would agree that correcting the former must have a statute of limitations while the latter may not.

Personally, I don't agree with your generalized concept that you can't make corrections in a game, especially one in which the history of game is recorded.

As for trusting the RM to track your resources in this game - well, that's obviously become the custom in these PBEM games (or has always been?). C1 proves that point, given 10 of 12 drivers had NO idea there resource counts were wrong!

Anyway, if you have more thoughts, please continue posting. I am paying attention. Also, when are you going to marshall a race? :grin:
Truck Series Driver (Pro II)
 
Posts: 35
Joined: 09 Sep 2014, 4:41 pm

Post 09 Nov 2018, 10:06 pm

I believe correctable errors should be fixed when discovered, While I agree that fixing them on the last lap is not a good thing, the people that are the most impacted is not the driver that has wear taken away, but the rest of the field. Everyone would like a couple of extra wear points, so it is important to get the wear and skill usage correct. But at the same time it is an unfair advantage to not correct an error no matter when it is discovered.

The responsibility relies on the driver to keep track and to insure that the RM is doing their job correctly. So this means the driver should be monitoring their wear and skill usage and their position on the track. I know of at least 3 times in the 4 most recent races where I have been shorted a space on a turn.

I would propose a 1 turn delay at the end of each lap and ask that all drivers review their skill and wear usage for that lap. The RM could also use this time to do sanity check each turn as well.

Another option would be to assign a driver or a pair of drivers to audit each turn as the race progresses. they could easily check the drivers that spend skill or wear and verify that their totals are correct for the current turn.

As some of you may know, I was actually building a spreadsheet to analyze races and realized that I can provide a high level of audit each turn. While it won't catch all the problems that can occur it does seem to catch many of the errors that occur. I'm using it currently to keep an eye on all 4 Indy races turn by turn to verify the skill and wear usage. It is showing promise as a good tool to help eliminate errors as they occur.

My bottom line is that correctable errors should be corrected as soon as possible. Please keep in mind the driver that is being corrected is not getting penalized, they are just paying for resources that they have spent. it is the rest of the field that gets penalized if these errors are not corrected.

Wear and skill issues that can't be corrected (e.g. there are no wear points left to take) would need a different solution, One answer, that most everyone will consider too harsh, would be to give the driver a 1 space penalty per resource that can not be corrected, if they have been found to over spend wear or skill points. On the other hand it would make the drivers be a bit more watchful on their resources.

On track, errors (e.g. moving 6 spaces instead of 7 on a turn) would have to be corrected before the next turn occurs it would seem to me.