Join In On The Action "Register Here" To View The Forums

Already a Member Login Here

Board index Forum Index
User avatar
Rally Racer (Pro III)
 
Posts: 5097
Joined: 08 Apr 2002, 9:45 am

Post 16 Jan 2015, 6:21 am

How about we revive a new ranking system? Anything to get people invested in the site can't be bad and It's a tool we have access to so why not use it?

The two main questions are:

1. What are ranks based upon? Redscape has a long history of rewarding consistency & quantity, not success.

2. Keep existing ranks or start from scratch?
User avatar
Rally Racer (Pro III)
 
Posts: 5097
Joined: 08 Apr 2002, 9:45 am

Post 16 Jan 2015, 6:24 am

Ok, so one more question...

Should non-diplomacy games be included? I would argue, yes. Not for myself but rather, for all the new members who are here for Speed Circuit.

As for tracking stuff - there are so few games going on right now, a monkey could do it.
User avatar
Dignitary
 
Posts: 1057
Joined: 13 Feb 2000, 11:18 am

Post 16 Jan 2015, 11:54 am

Well, first thing is we hire a monkey.

Next thing is we have to determine an objective standard. I agree that our "seniority" ranking does not really indicate any kind of quality, per se. If we want to pat our members on the back, we could ensure every player has a "service pins" indicating the number of years of participation, or something like that.

As for quality ranking, is there a way to automatically track victories on this site? I have read the ranking system used by Diplomaticcorp.com, which seems to be a pretty good, if complex, rating system, based on the ELO rating system, originally established for 2-player games, but has been expanded for various multi-player games. The system awards winning and surviving, and penalizes losing (i.e. eliminations). The system that DipCorp has developed even handles replacement players.

I think we should look at adopting this system, since it would help spread some consistency in the hobby, which has always been a problem. Here is a link to the web page from DipCorp about the rating system: http://www.diplomaticcorp.com/info.php?type=ratings.

What I don't know is HOW the system is actually implemented, if it is done by an off-site database or built into their own site's software. I can inquire to their web master to find out.

George
User avatar
Rally Racer (Pro III)
 
Posts: 5097
Joined: 08 Apr 2002, 9:45 am

Post 16 Jan 2015, 11:59 am

georgeatkins wrote:Well, first thing is we hire a monkey.

Can't we just buy one or is that verboten under U.S. labor laws? Will we have to provide healthcare or other benefits?
User avatar
Rally Racer (Pro III)
 
Posts: 5097
Joined: 08 Apr 2002, 9:45 am

Post 16 Jan 2015, 12:32 pm

That's a fine system, George, but I don't think it fits into the Redscape rank system.

Here's the deal... we can change any individual's rank, say from Attache to Statesman but we can't change the actual ranks themselves. At least not without a programmer who knows phpbb. You could shoehorn in a system such that 1300-1400 equals Statesman but the actual number won't be on the profile. Then you also have to deal with busting someone's rank when they drop beneath a threshold.

I would argue that such a system could be created and tracked manually in a designated forum. I think that would be terrific. Nor do I think the burden would be too heavy given the relative scarcity of games. We'll never see a constant flow of 20 games in progress at any one time (I remember the days when games filled in 24 hours) so the hired monkey can handle it with a spreadsheet... or a banana tree.

I'm thinking more along the lines of creating a points system that allows one to move up in rank, but not back. For example:

x points per win
x points per year played
x points per lap (gotta get my speed circuit in there - we could scale any non-dip game, actually)
-x points for an NMR
etc...

Scale it like we used to so it's easy to get out of attaché status but much more difficult to attain the dizzying heights that Randy has risen to. The rank could represent a combination of quality & commitment but perhaps their highest value will be to give new members something to strive for at Redscape and another reason to keep coming back.
User avatar
Dignitary
 
Posts: 1057
Joined: 13 Feb 2000, 11:18 am

Post 16 Jan 2015, 4:48 pm

SLOTerp ,

So are you saying that the promotional ranks are hard-coded in a way that cannot be changed, or only insofar as they must be reprogrammed?

It would be a shame, since I do believe the more consistently ranking systems are used, the more valid they are. Of course, we are not talking about professional Chess or Bridge; but I think having some standard measure would be better and might actually help attract players.

As you point out, this tracking could be done outside of Redscape. I do program, but not in PhP. But I might see about creating an ELO system in a standalone database and test it out.

My concern is that we're not creating just some kind of feel-good awards system. I don't think a forward-only rank tracking has a lot going for it. I think going up and down is natural. Many games and sports (i.e baseball) work that way. I'd like to think that Dip players can handle a promotional setback as well as they do when they get eliminated in a game. Or maybe better, come to think of it.

George
User avatar
Rally Racer (Pro III)
 
Posts: 5097
Joined: 08 Apr 2002, 9:45 am

Post 16 Jan 2015, 7:41 pm

George,

georgeatkins wrote:So are you saying that the promotional ranks are hard-coded in a way that cannot be changed, or only insofar as they must be reprogrammed?

Since Brad & Neal gave me administrative abilities, I have been able look behind the curtain. Setting up forums, moving stuff around, change settings, etc... Yay! Then I discovered there is another curtain... where the real power is. Unfortunately, nobody at Redscape has the ability to program the big stuff that's behind that curtain. Fixing the PM system, updating the graphics, creating a title page, and such cannot be done by anyone here. Brad had to pay someone just to de-couple OTTO from the system and fix the login issues. So, effectively the ranks are hard-coded.

As you point out, this tracking could be done outside of Redscape. I do program, but not in PhP. But I might see about creating an ELO system in a standalone database and test it out.

I think for what you're talking about, this would be ideal. Track the data offsite but publish the resulting player rankings here and keep them updated.

My concern is that we're not creating just some kind of feel-good awards system. I don't think a forward-only rank tracking has a lot going for it. I think going up and down is natural. Many games and sports (i.e baseball) work that way. I'd like to think that Dip players can handle a promotional setback as well as they do when they get eliminated in a game. Or maybe better, come to think of it.

Don't discount the value of a feel-good award. I remember when I started to move up and would often stare at my avatar with the proud proclamation of 'Statesman' underneath. Did it make me a better player? Doubtful. Did it make me want to spend more time at Redscape? Probably. We need foot traffic - let's give new members a reason to come back. Besides, even if they don't mean much... they're kind of fun.

Honestly, there is no reason we can't do both. Quality as dictated by an ELO system and some measure of dedication as dictated by the rank.

Mike
User avatar
Rally Racer (Pro III)
 
Posts: 5097
Joined: 08 Apr 2002, 9:45 am

Post 16 Jan 2015, 7:53 pm

Anyone remember the proper ordering of the ranks. I think these are correct.

Adjutant
Attache
Statesman
Dignitary
Emissary
Ambassador
Foreign Minister
Sovereign
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: 12 Jul 2001, 3:11 pm

Post 17 Jan 2015, 3:11 pm

SLOTerp wrote:Anyone remember the proper ordering of the ranks. I think these are correct.

Adjutant
Attache
Statesman
Dignitary
Emissary
Ambassador
Foreign Minister
Sovereign


Swap Emissary and Dignitary. You can sort by rank on the member list page. :grin:
User avatar
Rally Racer (Pro III)
 
Posts: 5097
Joined: 08 Apr 2002, 9:45 am

Post 19 Jan 2015, 8:44 am

Thanks, Kal!

Anybody recall the old criteria for ranks? Rewarding non-NMR play has its advantages, the most important being it encourages people to play. We need people to play!

How about something like this?

Adjutant
Attache (5 years or 10 turns)
Statesman (20 years)
Emissary (60 years)
Dignitary (100 years)
Ambassador (200 years)
Foreign Minister (500 years)
Sovereign (1,000 years)

NMR = -2 years

For adjutants that have a record of play in archived games, we could retroactively credit them. For those at higher ranks, start them at minimum years played then credit them as well.

A speed circuit lap (there are 3 in a race) could equal 3 years. A race takes about as long as a Diplomacy game and would be equivalent to a 9 year game. Whatever... just toss my drivers a bone.