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Post 20 Aug 2011, 12:40 pm

His EPA is really going to help jump start things by . . . shutting down power plants? To quote a well-known pol, "You betcha!"

First, the "positive" argument from Ezra Klein:

Over the next 18 months, the Environmental Protection Agency will finalize a flurry of new rules to curb pollution from coal-fired power plants. Mercury, smog, ozone, greenhouse gases, water intake, coal ash—it’s all getting regulated. And, not surprisingly, some lawmakers are grumbling.

Industry groups such the Edison Electric Institute, which represents investor-owned utilities, and the American Legislative Exchange Council have dubbed the coming rules “EPA’s Regulatory Train Wreck.” The regulations, they say, will cost utilities up to $129 billion and force them to retire one-fifth of coal capacity. Given that coal provides 45 percent of the country’s power, that means higher electric bills, more blackouts and fewer jobs. The doomsday scenario has alarmed Republicans in the House, who have been scrambling to block the measures. Environmental groups retort that the rules will bring sizeable public health benefits, and that industry groups have been exaggerating the costs of environmental regulations since they were first created.

So, who’s right? This month, the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, which conducts policy research for members of Congress, has been circulating a paper that tries to calmly sort through the shouting match. Thanks to The Hill’s Andrew Restuccia, it’s now available (PDF) for all to read. And the upshot is that CRS is awfully skeptical of the “train wreck” predictions.. . .

The CRS report also agrees with green groups that the benefits of these new rules shouldn’t be downplayed. Those can be tricky to quantify, however. In one example, the EPA estimates that an air-transport rule to clamp down on smog-causing sulfur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide would help prevent 21,000 cases of bronchitis and 23,000 heart attacks, and save 36,000 lives. That’s, at the high end, $290 billion in health benefits, compared with $2.8 billion per year in costs (according to the EPA) by 2014. “In most cases,” CRS concludes, “the benefits are larger.”
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Post 20 Aug 2011, 4:13 pm

This seems convincing to me ... I'm against frivolous and much government regulation, but a clean environment and general health is something that I do want, and we need regulation to get there. I'm certainly inclined to believe that we need strong regulation for mercury and coal ash. I'd like to hear the negative argument.
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Post 20 Aug 2011, 7:08 pm

Ray Jay wrote:This seems convincing to me ... I'm against frivolous and much government regulation, but a clean environment and general health is something that I do want, and we need regulation to get there. I'm certainly inclined to believe that we need strong regulation for mercury and coal ash. I'd like to hear the negative argument.


So, rolling blackouts are okay? Higher costs to the consumer are okay?

That's not very "stimulative."

Two state utilities said this week new federal pollution rules will lead to higher electricity costs come January.

Wisconsin Public Service Corp. of Green Bay said its residential customers can expect an increase of more than $4 a month next year, including about $2 linked to the new rules designed to limit air pollution from coal-fired power plants.

The utility said it would see higher costs of about $32.6 million in 2012 from the Cross-State Air Pollution Rule that was finalized recently by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. That will result in rates going up by 6.8% instead of 3.4%, the utility said.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency last month finalized stronger regulations for Wisconsin and 26 other states aimed at curbing air pollution from long-distance sources.

Environmental groups praised the new rule because it would reduce acid rain and air pollution as well as help curb health effects from dirty air linked to coal plants. The EPA projected the rule will save up to 34,000 lives a year and prevent more than 400,000 asthma attacks as well as 19,000 admissions to hospitals.

Nationwide, the EPA estimated that utilities are projected to spend $800 million on the rule in 2014, in addition to $1.6 billion a year that's been spent to satisfy an earlier version of the regulations.

But the EPA estimates the nation will see $120 billion to $280 billion in annual health and welfare benefits beginning in 2014.


Okay, that is either a misprint, a misinterpretation, or the biggest crock in EPA history. In two years, the EPA, by hiking regulations, is going to save in the neighborhood of $200B?

Yeah, and how many jobs will be saved? You know how the government loves to invent stats.

I remember Nancy Pelosi saying Obamacare(s) would create 400K jobs immediately.

If you believe the air is so bad, that the EPA can magically save that amount of money in health and welfare benefits, well . . . I'm pretty sure you don't believe that. No one believes that. If so, we could end Obamacare and simply let the EPA run everything. Look at all the health savings!

Roll'em, roll'em, roll'em, keep those blackouts rollin'

The head of the Texas Public Utility Commission expressed concern Friday that a new federal air quality rule, set to take effect Jan. 1, will cause disruptions in electric service.

If implementation of the Cross-State Air Pollution Rule is not delayed, "I have no doubt in my mind that this rule will result in reliability issues and rolling outages in Texas," Donna Nelson said at the start of the commission's meeting.

The rule, issued in early July by the Environmental Protection Agency, would require substantial reductions in emissions of nitrogen oxides and sulfur dioxide at power plants in 27 states.

The EPA says the rule will save and prolong lives by reducing harmful smog and soot pollution. Gina McCarthy, an EPA assistant administrator, said in a previous statement that power plants in the state "will be able to cut their pollution without jeopardizing reliable electricity service for Texans."

But Dallas-based power generator Luminant says it doesn't have enough time to comply and has asked that the EPA delay implementation.

The company says the industry's standard time frame for installing emission controls is several years, but the rule requires compliance in six months. So Luminant, a subsidiary of Energy Future Holdings, has said it may have to shut down some coal-fired power plants in East Texas.

"Curtailing plant and/or mine operations will be the only option" if the 1,323-page rule goes into effect as planned, Luminant said.
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Post 20 Aug 2011, 11:37 pm

So the plant owners complain, of course they would. Question is why do you believe them 100% ? Next question would be how toxic is the stuff they are blowing into the air ? I don't like high energy prices anymore than you do and i'm not a fan of black outs rolling or otherwise either. I am however against being poisoned by mercury or any other garbage that comes out of burning fossil fuels too.
So the rational approach would be to go look at the pollution data and then decide wether measure are apropriate and if these specific measures are well thought out and implemented.
But i guess you can also just scream your head off when the word regulation is mentioned.
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Post 21 Aug 2011, 12:57 pm

Faxmonkey wrote:So the plant owners complain, of course they would. Question is why do you believe them 100% ? Next question would be how toxic is the stuff they are blowing into the air ?


I don't have to believe them 100%. I only have to apply common sense. We have a president who said he wanted electricity rates to skyrocket and said he would put coal companies out of business. If shutting down these plants will save hundreds of billions of dollars in health costs, that should be demonstrable, yes? Where is the proof? Why doesn't the EPA prove what it is saying or do you just believe them 100%?

If the stuff is so bad, why is air quality across the country so much better than it was 40 years ago?

So the rational approach would be to go look at the pollution data and then decide wether measure are apropriate and if these specific measures are well thought out and implemented.
But i guess you can also just scream your head off when the word regulation is mentioned.


If you believe the EPA is somehow not a political arm of the Obama administration, you've not been keeping up with Lisa Jackson. She's quite the smarmy political hack.
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Post 21 Aug 2011, 2:37 pm

Just think of all the people who will be put to work in the candle making industry.
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Post 22 Aug 2011, 10:34 pm

Doctor Fate wrote:
Faxmonkey wrote:So the plant owners complain, of course they would. Question is why do you believe them 100% ? Next question would be how toxic is the stuff they are blowing into the air ?


I don't have to believe them 100%. I only have to apply common sense. We have a president who said he wanted electricity rates to skyrocket and said he would put coal companies out of business. If shutting down these plants will save hundreds of billions of dollars in health costs, that should be demonstrable, yes? Where is the proof? Why doesn't the EPA prove what it is saying or do you just believe them 100%?


And what did i say ? I said check the data, before screaming your head off that it's only motivated by politics.

Doctor Fate wrote:If the stuff is so bad, why is air quality across the country so much better than it was 40 years ago?


That's easy 1) better technology 2) more stringent regulation 3) loss of heavy industry . That doesn't however proof in any way that the coal power plants aren't releasing toxic pollutants, especially the older ones. New research might have shown that substances believed to be harmless in fact aren't, people might have higher expectations towards clean air or whatever.
Just because the air got cleaner doesn't mean that you should ignore potential pollutants.


Doctor Fate wrote:If you believe the EPA is somehow not a political arm of the Obama administration, you've not been keeping up with Lisa Jackson. She's quite the smarmy political hack.


Let's say i buy into the argument that the EPA is a purely political organisation, then we still have their word (gotta be sceptical because they're political hacks) vs the energy producers (gotta be sceptical, because they want to protect their profit) which leads me right back to the matter of checking the data.
I'm pretty sure it's not too hard to analyse what's coming out of the plants, measure the concentration of the bad stuff in concentric circles around the plants in question.

If it turns out it's highly toxic install filtration systems or shut the plants down, if not leave them alone. Hurray problem solved.
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Post 23 Aug 2011, 6:05 am

Faxmonkey wrote:And what did i say ? I said check the data, before screaming your head off that it's only motivated by politics.


That is so fair of you! I'm sure you checked the data before asserting the plant owners are lying and the EPA is completely altruistic? I'll look forward to your fair and balanced analysis.

On the other hand, there are several statements by the President and Ms. Jackson which seem to indicate a less than impartial EPA. And no, I'm not going to bother since you haven't.

That's easy 1) better technology 2) more stringent regulation 3) loss of heavy industry . That doesn't however proof in any way that the coal power plants aren't releasing toxic pollutants, especially the older ones. New research might have shown that substances believed to be harmless in fact aren't, people might have higher expectations towards clean air or whatever.
Just because the air got cleaner doesn't mean that you should ignore potential pollutants.


So insightful.

I'll take the other side: The plants may be releasing some pollutants. However, there is no such thing as clean coal, so either you outlaw coal and live with higher energy prices or you minimize potential pollutants. I love the word "potential." It shows how much effort you put into this, er "potential" effort.

Let's say i buy into the argument that the EPA is a purely political organisation, then we still have their word (gotta be sceptical because they're political hacks) vs the energy producers (gotta be sceptical, because they want to protect their profit) which leads me right back to the matter of checking the data.

I'm pretty sure it's not too hard to analyse what's coming out of the plants, measure the concentration of the bad stuff in concentric circles around the plants in question.


Even this would not tell us what the actual harm is to human beings. The fact that some "potential" pollutants may be released does not mean there is necessarily a significant health risk.Said risk should be easily demonstrable, right? People have lived in those "concentric circles" for decades around those plants. Are they dying early? From what? Where are the class-action lawsuits? The medical studies?

If it turns out it's highly toxic install filtration systems or shut the plants down, if not leave them alone. Hurray problem solved.


Meanwhile, in a future 100 degree summer in Texas, some people will have to rely on "potential" air-conditioning to save their lives. Brilliant.
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Post 23 Aug 2011, 6:14 am

More "fixing": destroying jobs in the Gulf.

Ten oil rigs have left the Gulf of Mexico since the Obama Administration imposed a moratorium on deepwater oil and gas drilling in May 2010 and others could follow soon, a detailed July 2011 report from Sen. David Vitter’s (R-La.) office shows.

The ten rigs named in the document are: Marinas, Discover Americas, Ocean Endeavor, Ocean Confidence, Stena Forth, Clyde Bourdeaux, Ensco 8503, Deep Ocean Clarion, Discover Spirit, and Amirante. The rigs have left the Gulf for locations in Egypt, Congo, French Guiana, Liberia, Nigeria and Brazil.

It gets worse.

Several of the remaining rigs could be relocating soon, according to the report. These include the Paul Romano, the Ocean Monarch and the Saratoga. Moreover, eight other rigs that were planned for the Gulf have been detoured away, Don Briggs, President of the Louisiana Oil and Gas Association (LOGA), points out.

“When you have companies that would be spending hundreds of millions of dollars, or some cases, billions of dollars, they need certainty,” Briggs explained. “We don’t have that now and I don’t expect that we will anytime soon. We will be in a deteriorating position until this changes.”


In Obamaworld, the only good jobs are the ones the government creates by "investing." Oil and coal are the enemies and therefore must be regulated out of business to make way for the "good guys," i.e. "green energy." It doesn't matter that "green energy" is inefficient and not competitive.

Where did Obama get his MBA? What corporations has he run?
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Post 23 Aug 2011, 6:25 am

NYT reporting on the Green Energy fiasco:

Federal and state efforts to stimulate creation of green jobs have largely failed, government records show. Two years after it was awarded $186 million in federal stimulus money to weatherize drafty homes, California has spent only a little over half that sum and has so far created the equivalent of just 538 full-time jobs in the last quarter, according to the State Department of Community Services and Development.

The weatherization program was initially delayed for seven months while the federal Department of Labor determined prevailing wage standards for the industry. Even after that issue was resolved, the program never really caught on as homeowners balked at the upfront costs.

“Companies and public policy officials really overestimated how much consumers care about energy efficiency,” said Sheeraz Haji, chief executive of the Cleantech Group, a market research firm. “People care about their wallet and the comfort of their home, but it’s not a sexy thing.”

Job training programs intended for the clean economy have also failed to generate big numbers. The Economic Development Department in California reports that $59 million in state, federal and private money dedicated to green jobs training and apprenticeship has led to only 719 job placements — the equivalent of an $82,000 subsidy for each one.

“The demand’s just not there to take this to scale,” said Fred Lucero, project manager at Richmond BUILD, which teaches students the basics of carpentry and electrical work in addition to specifically “green” trades like solar installation.

Richmond BUILD has found jobs for 159 of the 221 students who have entered its clean-energy program — but only 35 graduates are employed with solar and energy efficiency companies, with the balance doing more traditional building trades work. Mr. Lucero said he considered each placement a success because his primary mission was to steer residents of the city’s most violent neighborhoods away from a life of crime.

At Asian Neighborhood Design, a 38-year old nonprofit in the South of Market neighborhood of San Francisco, training programs for green construction jobs have remained small because the number of available jobs is small. The group accepted just 16 of 200 applicants for the most recent 14-week cycle, making it harder to get into than the University of California. The group’s training director, Jamie Brewster, said he was able to find jobs for 10 trainees within two weeks of their completing the program.

Mr. Brewster said huge job losses in construction had made it nearly impossible to place large numbers of young people in the trades. Because green construction is a large component of the green economy, the moribund housing market and associated weakness in all types of building are clearly important factors in explaining the weak creation of green jobs.

Advocates and entrepreneurs also blame Washington for the slow growth. Mr. Jones cited the failure of so-called cap and trade legislation, which would have cut carbon pollution and increased the cost of using fossil fuel, making alternative energy more competitive. Congressional Republicans have staunchly opposed cap-and-trade.

Mr. Haji of the Cleantech Group agrees. “Having a market mechanism that helps drive these new technologies would have made a significant difference,” he said. “Without that, the industry muddles along.”


By "market mechanism" what Mr. Haji meant was "legislative enforcement." In other words, without a law forcing energy costs to "soar" (as the President once promised he would do), green energy can't compete. Meanwhile, Federal and State monies (isn't California really, really broke?) continue to be poured down this sinkhole.

Yet, President Obama has touted this over and over again.

I can't wait for his "jobs speech." It should be a real Abbott and Costello routine.
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Post 23 Aug 2011, 6:42 am

steve
The fact that some "potential" pollutants may be released does not mean there is necessarily a significant health risk.Said risk should be easily demonstrable, right? People have lived in those "concentric circles" for decades around those plants. Are they dying early? From what? Where are the class-action lawsuits? The medical studies?

One of the things pollutting plants do is produce higher smoke stacks and systems that dispel their waste gases higher into the atmosphere...spreading the pollution beyond their immediate area. One thing that is clear is that asthma and bronchial problems and heart disease are reaching epidemic proportions and air quality certainly plays a role.

whats happening here is that electrical energy has been kept at artificially low prices becasue coal plants haven't be made to meet pollution standards that would effectively protect the populace from the effects of the polution. What that means is the health care system ends up absorbing the cost. Where the original investment in air quality saves money for the producers, and profit, it costs ordinary taxpayers and busiesses in increased health costs and health insurance costs...
By ensuring that electrical prodcucers absorb the cost of maintaining air quality it might indeed raise the cost of electricity. And the market would respond. By producing ways to save electricity. (Turning off lights that are on wastefully 24/7 in buildings, making machines more efficient etc.) But by allowing the producers to off load the cost of their pollution you've delayed the market reaction to higher electrical costs... To the almost sole benefit of the profit margin of electrical producers..

I remember the industry out cry about the "dubious science" and enormous cost of adding in scrubbers to help eliminate acid rain... They survived the costs, and acid rain was beaten back. I remember the tobaco industries duplicitous fight back at the "dubious science" and the restriction of personal freedom regarding tobacco.
Self interested industry doesn't have a very good track record on matters like this Steve.
As for the oil rigs in the gulf....how many people would lose their livlihoods in the event of another New Horizon spill? (Owned by a swiss company Steve. That is they pay corporate taxes in Switzerland even though 100% of their business is conducted in Texas...) Fisherman and tourism industries deserve protection from companies unwilling to incur the costs of preventing disruptions or even the elimination of those peoples livlihoods. (By the way industries that employ more people than the drilling rigs in the gulf.)
But you never hear about their side of the story when the costs of prevention are discussed by oil companies. When they discuss the costs of prevention its words like "prohibitive" that come to mind.
Typically short term thinking... The kind corporations are good at, but which ignore the long term implications for the country as a whole.
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Post 23 Aug 2011, 7:07 am

Very emotional. I was moved to tears, Ricky. Let me know when you want to introduce a fact or two.

The EPA claims we will save up to $280 billion in health costs, yes BILLION, in 2014 as a result of their actions. You say I should just accept it. I say it's "dubious science."

The onus is not on me to disprove the claim. Its outrageous nature demands it be proven. Go ahead.

Btw, I'm sure Americans everywhere will be thrilled to know their electricity prices are "artificially low." Again, if it's so great, the President should run on this.

"Thanks to me, your electricity costs will skyrocket."

That's a heckuva slogan!
Last edited by Doctor Fate on 23 Aug 2011, 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post 23 Aug 2011, 7:23 am

I read an interesting article at RealClearPolitics last week with the premise that the liberal media bias is actually beneficial to the right and detrimental to the left. The argument goes that the by being extremely critical of any program the right suggests, the media exposes the flaws in the program and forces the right to hone the proposal to respond to those criticisims. However, because the left doesn't face the same level of criticism, it doesn't go through the same honing process. Therefore, when it gets implemented, there are a lot of problems and unintended consequences that catch the Left unawares.

I wish I could find the article. It was interesting.
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Post 23 Aug 2011, 9:30 am

Steve: you've overlooked the broad benefits of Obama's policies to smiths, hostlers, carters, grooms, stableboys and knackers--all professions that have been all but destroyed by big oil. Even now, with Obama's reforms just underway, shovelling horse droppings is one of the few growth industries in our economy--no doubt explaining why Washington has fared relatively well.
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Post 23 Aug 2011, 9:57 am

steve
The EPA claims we will save up to $280 billion in health costs, yes BILLION, in 2014 as a result of their actions. You say I should just accept it. I say it's "dubious science."
The onus is not on me to disprove the claim. Its outrageous nature demands it be proven. Go ahead
.

The regulations, they say, will cost utilities up to $129 billion and force them to retire one-fifth of coal capacity.

Steve, you readily accept the industries claims, apparently, with no particular requriement that they prove their numbers to you ...
Why is it that you haven't developed an equally sceptical view of industry? Could there be too much prejudice on your part to consider the issue fairly?
I don't know the specific details of either arguement. But the track record for industrie's dire predictions versus what happens after regulation occurs often, but not always, puts the lie to the exagerations. (see acid rain issue)
I readily admit to you that the claims on health care costs are probably somewhat difficult to estimate. However since 17% of your GDP is currently going toward health care costs, a $280 billion saving doesn't seem that outrageuos.(Kaiser institute say health care was $2.5 trillion in 2009)
How many patient vists due to out of control asthma, or heart attacks brought on by breathing problems would need to be averted in order to derive that saving? How many prescriptions used to control asthma or heart problems might need be excised? Breathing problems are chronic problems that cost an inordinate share of the total health care costs.

An acute episode of pneumonia or a motor vehicle accident might lead to an expensive hospitalization for an otherwise healthy person, who might be in the top 1 percent for just that year but have few expenses in subsequent years. Similarly, many people have chronic conditions, such as diabetes and asthma, which are fairly expensive to treat on an ongoing basis for the rest of their lives, but in most years will not put them at the very top of health care spenders. However, each year some of those with chronic conditions will have acute episodes or complications requiring a hospitalization or other more expensive treatment.
source:http://www.ahrq.gov/research/ria19/expendria.htm

The study linked here looks at the way health care costs are consumed. 5% of the population accounts for 50% of costs... Cleaner air would certainly go some distance to allieviating some of the cost from chronic breathing problems..Thats intuitve . Or are you willing to argue that?