danivon wrote:No, Steve, it's just that we don't agree with you on it. Maddening, huh?

Actually I agree with Fax. Irish Republican violence is as much of a threat to the UK existentially and in terms of individuals.

danivon wrote:Really? Do you want cowpat on white or cowpat on rye? If you choose neither it's a dodge.

Seriously, enough with the logical fallacies and accept that you may not be the arbiter of truth.

Which is the bigger threat? I'll wager you can't/won't really answer that.

Pfc. Naser Jason Abdo, an AWOL soldier from Fort Campbell in Kentucky, was arrested by the Killeen, Texas, Police Department near Fort Hood and remains in custody at the Killeen jail.

Abdo, 21, was found with weapons, explosives and jihadist materials at the time of his arrest, a senior Army source confirms to Fox News. He was arrested at around 2 p.m. Wednesday after someone called authorities to report a suspicious individual.

Eric Vasys, a spokesman with the FBI's San Antonio Office, said authorities found firearms and bomb making components inside Abdo's motel room. Sources also say Abdo was attempting to make a purchase at Guns Galore in Killeen, the same ammunition store where Maj. Nidal Hasan purchased weapons that were allegedly used to gun down 13 people and wound 30 others at the base on Nov. 5, 2009.

Sources said Abdo had enough materials to make two bombs, including 18 pounds of sugar and six pounds of smokeless gunpowder -- a possible trigger for an explosive. A pressure cooker was also found. Another counterterrorism source said the bomb making materials and methodology came "straight out of Inspire (a terrorist magazine) and an Al Qaeda explosives course manual."

Killeen Police Chief Dennis Baldwin alluded to the severity of the threat at a news conference Thursday afternoon announcing the arrest.

"We we would probably be here today giving you a different briefing had he not been stopped," Baldwin said, and military personnel appeared to be the target.

ABC News reported, citing law enforcement documents, that the target wasn't the base itself but a nearby restaurant that is popular with personnel from Fort Hood.

Pictures have emerged showing men unloading the first airlifted humanitarian food aid which arrived at the Aden Abdulle Osman International Airport in Mogadishu, Somalia, on Wednesday. The World Food Programme airlifted 10 tonnes of emergency supplies to Mogadishu to feed thousands of starving kids in the poverty-stricken country. It is the first of several food aid arrivals due in the next few weeks.

But heavy fighting erupted in Mogadishu as peacekeepers launched an offensive aimed at protecting the famine relief efforts from attacks by al-Qaeda-linked militants.

At least six people died and 39 people were wounded. There are fears that fighting could make getting food to those in desperate need of nourishment even more difficult.

Somalia is suffering the worst drought in 60 years. It has left over 12 million people in danger of starvation and sparked a global fundraising campaign.

Doctor Fate wrote:

Faxmonkey wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:Which is the bigger threat? I'll wager you can't/won't really answer that.

That one is really easy. Neither one poses an immentent threat to western culture or securtiy in any serious way. How we react to them however does pose a threat to our values and culture.

Perfect dodge.

One of them causes more deaths and violence than the other. Which is it?

That's like me asking which is more dangerous, cancer or scurvy, and you answering "Neither one." That's not an answer.

Faxmonkey wrote:If you think i have a problem saying that muslims are racking up a far higher body count than right wing terrorists you are wrong.

I just think neither should lead us to implement stupid, useless or outright dangerous laws or procedures that do more harm to our way of living than some crackpot morons.

The danger is our overreaction to the terrorists (or any other crisis for that matter)

Doctor Fate wrote:It's not a logical fallacy. Either Islamic terrorists or Right-wing, anti-Islamic terrorists are a bigger threat. The problem for you is if you tell the truth, you'll violate your tender sensibilities.

To say it is a false choice would be to say that neither represents a threat.

There was a shooting today in Kashmir by Islamists--seven dead.

Go ahead, tell me all of the current violence by right-wing nationalists across the globe.

Faxmonkey wrote:I just think neither should lead us to implement stupid, useless or outright dangerous laws or procedures that do more harm to our way of living than some crackpot morons.
The danger is our overreaction to the terrorists (or any other crisis for that matter)

danivon wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:It's not a logical fallacy. Either Islamic terrorists or Right-wing, anti-Islamic terrorists are a bigger threat. The problem for you is if you tell the truth, you'll violate your tender sensibilities.

When I studied mathematics, there were three symbols that were to do with comparisons. You are clearly asking me to choose between ">" (greater than) and "<" (less than)

Apparently I'm not allowed to use "=" (equals) when you ask me to make a comparison.

To say it is a false choice would be to say that neither represents a threat.

Rubbish. I am saying that both are threats. "a = b" is not the same as saying "a = b = 0".

Stop me if this basic logic stuff gets too complicated for you.

In terms of deaths, Muslim terrorists have killed more than others recently. In terms of existential threat, I view all forms of violent ideological and political warfare as being pretty similar, whether left or right wing, Muslim or Christian or Hindu, whether by the State or against the State.

There was a shooting today in Kashmir by Islamists--seven dead.

Was there? I googled "Kashmir shooting" using the Web and News searches. I found references to a shooting that killed one. http://www.dawn.com/2011/07/28/indian-o ... oting.html Do you have a link for the shooting you are talking about?

The death toll from Thursday's fierce gunbattle between the government troops and al-Qaeda linked Abu Sayyaf group in the southern Philippine island province of Sulu has increased to 37, the military said Friday.

The military confirmed some 30 Abu Sayyaf militants were among those killed in the four-hour clash when government troops overran a stronghold of the group led by five commanders.

Go ahead, tell me all of the current violence by right-wing nationalists across the globe.

I mentioned Irish nationalists (who are not right wing, generally, they tend to cling to a more left wing political view outside their nationalist ideology). They killed a policeman recently (arrests were made yesterday), because he was a Catholic.

You see it as a numbers game. I don't. Sorry that I don't want to play that game.

Indeed. That over-reaction is exactly what they want to happen.

Doctor Fate wrote:Pfft.

Let's try to break it down in a way that even you can understand. Who has killed more people in the last 20 years? Right-wing terrorists or Islamic terrorists? In the last month?

Whatever scale you use, Islamic terror is a far greater threat to human life that right-wing extremists. That you can't do that math speaks volumes for your lack of logical thinking.

I didn't introduce the "existential" threat argument. That's just you moving the goalposts.

There was a shooting today in Kashmir by Islamists--seven dead.

Was there? I googled "Kashmir shooting" using the Web and News searches. I found references to a shooting that killed one. http://www.dawn.com/2011/07/28/indian-o ... oting.html Do you have a link for the shooting you are talking about?

I will find it, can't figure out where I left it.

Right. You can't really measure threat level by mere numbers.

I didn't believe that when GWB said it and I don't believe it now.

They want to kill people. They want to establish their strength and our weakness. They believe that as they do this, no matter how heinous their crimes, they will gather more supporters/warriors.

They really do want to take over the world--and with a pool of more than 1B followers, they have a far better chance than do right-wing neo-Nazi-nationalists. Even if not an "existential threat," a few hundred thousand extremists can kill a lot of people.

danivon wrote:My scale is in the existential level and on the threat to society as a whole. But, as we will see, you have decreed that I cannot use such a scale, as you want to make out this is 'moving the goalposts'.

I didn't introduce the "existential" threat argument. That's just you moving the goalposts.

I've been applying it all along. Sorry if you didn't notice it.

Still, you just labelled every Muslim on the planet as a potential violent world-taking-over nutter. So now I really must back away slowly and leave you to calm down a bit.

I’m not going to pretend I’m a very religious person as that would be a lie. I’ve always been very pragmatic and influenced by my secular surroundings and environment. In the past, I remember I used to think;

“Religion is a crutch for weak people. What is the point in believing in a higher power if you have confidence in yourself!? Pathetic.”

Perhaps this is true for many cases. Religion is a crutch for many weak people and many embrace religion for self serving reasons as a source for drawing mental strength (to feed their weak emotional state f example during illness, death, poverty etc.). Since I am not a hypocrite, I’ll say directly that this is my agenda as well. However, I have not yet felt the need to ask God for strength, yet… But I’m pretty sure I will pray to God as I’m rushing through my city, guns blazing, with 100 armed system protectors pursuing me with the intention to stop and/or kill. I know there is a 80%+ chance I am going to die during the operation as I have no intention to surrender to them until I have completed all three primary objectives AND the bonus mission. When I initiate (providing I haven’t been apprehended before then), there is a 70% chance that I will complete the first objective, 40% for the second, 20% for the third and less than 5% chance that I will be able to complete the bonus mission. It is likely that I will pray to God for strength at one point during that operation, as I think most people in that situation would….If praying will act as an additional mental boost/soothing it is the pragmatical thing to do. I guess I will find out… If there is a God I will be allowed to enter heaven as all other martyrs for the Church in the past. (p. 1344)

Right. You can't really measure threat level by mere numbers.

Doctor Fate wrote:Tell it to the kids starving in Somalia, as a direct result of Islamist attacks on relief efforts!

The War in Somalia was an armed conflict involving largely Ethiopian and Somali Transitional Federal Government (TFG) forces and Somali troops from Puntland versus the Somali Islamist umbrella group, the Islamic Court Union (ICU), and other affiliated militias for control of the country. There is a clear connection between War in Somalia (2009–) and the War of 2006. The war officially began shortly before July 20, 2006 when U.S. backed Ethiopian troops invaded Somalia to prop up the TFG in Baidoa. The TFG in Somalia invited Ethiopians to intervene, which became an "unpopular decision" that failed to strengthen the government. Subsequently the leader of the ICU, Sheik Hassan Dahir Aweys, declared "Somalia is in a state of war, and all Somalis should take part in this struggle against Ethiopia". On December 24, Ethiopia stated it would actively combat the ICU.

Ethiopia's prime minister, Meles Zenawi, said Ethiopia entered hostilities because it faced a direct threat to its own borders. “Ethiopian defense forces were forced to enter into war to protect the sovereignty of the nation,” he said. “We are not trying to set up a government for Somalia, nor do we have an intention to meddle in Somalia's internal affairs. We have only been forced by the circumstances.”

The ICU, which controlled the coastal areas of southern Somalia, engaged in fighting with the forces of the Somali TFG, and the autonomous regional governments of Puntland and Galmudug, all of whom were backed by Ethiopian troops. The outbreak of heavy fighting began on December 20 with the Battle of Baidoa, after the lapse of a one-week deadline the ICU imposed on Ethiopia (on December 12) to withdraw from the nation. Ethiopia, however, refused to abandon its positions around the TFG interim capital at Baidoa. On December 29, after several successful battles, TFG and Ethiopian troops entered Mogadishu relatively unopposed. The UN also stated that many Arab nations including Egypt were also supporting the ICU through Eritrea. Although not announced until later, a small number of U.S. Special Forces troops accompanied Ethiopian and TFG troops after the collapse and withdrawal of the ICU to give military advice and to track suspected al-Qaida fighters. Both American support for the TFG and various Arab Nations' support for the ICU were isolated cases from the central motive of the war between the allied Ethiopian & Somali government forces and the allied ICU & Eritrean forces.

As of January 2007, Ethiopia said it would withdraw "within a few weeks" but the TFG, US and UN officials oppose Ethiopian withdrawal because it would create a "security vacuum," while the ICU has demanded immediate Ethiopian withdrawal.

The two sides had traded war declarations and gunfire on several occasions before. Eastern African countries and international observers fear the Ethiopian offensive may lead to a regional war, involving Eritrea, which has a complex relationship with Ethiopia and whom Ethiopia claims to be a supporter of the ICU.

As of January 2009, Ethiopian troops withdrew from Somalia following a two-year insurgency, which lead to loss of territory and effectiveness of the TFG and a power-sharing deal between Islamists splinter group led by Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed's Alliance for the Re-liberation of Somalia (ARS) and TFG Prime Minister Nur Hassan in Djibouti. The al Shabaab who has separated from the ICU rejects the peace deal and continued to take territories including Baidoa. Another Islamist group, Ahlu Sunnah Waljama'ah, which is allied to the transitional government and supported by Ethiopia, continues to attack al Shabab and take over towns as well.

After the parliament took in 200 officials from the moderate Islamist opposition, ARS leader Sheikh Ahmed was elected TFG President on January 31, 2009. Since then, the al shabab radical islamists have accused the new TFG President of accepting the secular transitional government and have continued the civil war since he arrived in Mogadishu at the presidential palace...see more.