For me it's support Ukraine, support Israel (and support Taiwan). In both cases we are supporting democratically elected governments against non-democratic terrorist entities. In both case we are only being asked for weapons and financing, but the causes are just and the people who are fighting them are willing to shed their own blood.

This is much better than what we did in Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan where we used our military force. Ultimately these became imperial wars whereas Ukraine and Israel are not.

I think that's the key. It's both moral and practical. The practicality is that it is much cheaper (in the largest sense of the word) to supply money than it is to supply people. Proxy wars have been around for over 3,000 years and probably longer. There's a reason ...

bbauska wrote:I would hope that other people on Redscape would say what their position is concerning support for countries and declarations of war. Let me know what you would do concerning Ukraine and Israel. Also explain the differences if any?

War is horrible, but I do support UKR in their fight against the Russian invasion. There are many, many good reasons to support UKR from it's the right thing, to Real Politic reasons. The down side is the substantial cost, which should not be dismissed, but I think is outweighed by the benefits to the national interest.

I don't think Israel's case is as clear. First, it's asymmetric. How much material help do they need to fight these terrorists? Israel is vastly more powerful and it's not clear how much support they actually need. Second, Israel is not a developing nation. Third, there are no front lines, they are trying to pry out terrorists in a city with mostly innocent people. How does material support help that cause? Or more specifically, how does material support help that cause while minimizing or eliminating injuries to children? I don't think we have a clear answer to that question. I readily admit that I find the mess in Israel too disturbing. It's hard for me to discuss rationally.

Ukraine is not a developing nation, either.

As for the Hamas elected region of Gaza, I see that they brought this upon themselves. The terrorist attack on Israel NEEDS response so it NEVER happens again. The people of Gaza voted for this terrorist group, and are getting the fruits of such election. I "feel" bad for them, but it is not a surprise.

The Israeli government offered to let anyone come through checkpoints and into camps. HAMAS was the entity prohibiting travel. If anyone who wishes to leave and be identified exiting should be fine. That is unless you are a terrorist. You would get nabbed at the border and dealt with properly.

Has Hamas released hostages? Let me re-phrase... INNOCENT HOSTAGES? Emphatically NO.. They have not.

Who is the bad guy there, anyway?

I see Putin and Hamas on the same side as the aggressor. Shame on them. I hope they all get what they deserve.

Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat as George. Hamas v Israel is clear-cut to me in favor of Israel. But Palestinian civilians--especially innocent children--getting caught in the cross-fire...I guess I have a hard time assessing what's right. What's necessary for Israel's self-defense, whether the civilian casualties are unavoidable, whether other tactics could be used..Just unknowns there. "I readily admit that I find the mess in Israel too disturbing. It's hard for me to discuss rationally." Yep.

I have to admit, my initial reaction to condemnation of what was going on in Gaza by leftists/young people was that they were being one-sided and naive, that Israel has a right to protect itself, that they were being manipulated by Hamas. But I'm starting to wonder whether Israel has lost its way here...

https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/175 ... r=amanpour

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2024/01 ... -intl-cmd/

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2 ... e-children

Still hopeful for a 2 state solution that will allow Palestinians to put their energy and focus into developing a new state rather than in eternal conflict with Israel, which is neither good for them nor Israel.

freeman3 wrote:Still hopeful for a 2 state solution that will allow Palestinians to put their energy and focus into developing a new state rather than in eternal conflict with Israel, which is neither good for them nor Israel.

Fine with a two state solution, except I would like to know what Israel should do if rocket fire comes from this "second state"? Is that a declaration of war, considering Gaza is Hamas and Hamas is Gaza? Politically it became one in the same when Hamas was elected.

If rockets were launched, in my mind it is a declaration of war from one nation to another, and retribution is valid and should be expected.

Well, theres not much point in a 2 state solution if that were to continue to happen. The point is peace which the Palestinians would have to be willing to accept. Clearly, as yet, they haven't been willing to accept it. But hopefully they will (and hopefully Israel is willing to accept a 2 state solution.). That's a lot of hopes.

bbauska wrote:Ukraine is not a developing nation, either.

"According to the definition from the International Monetary Fund (IMF), Ukraine is a developing country because of its lower economic performance."

https://www.worlddata.info/europe/ukraine/index.php#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20definition%20from,the%20lower%20middle%2Dincome%20countries.

freeman3 wrote:Well, theres not much point in a 2 state solution if that were to continue to happen. The point is peace which the Palestinians would have to be willing to accept. Clearly, as yet, they haven't been willing to accept it. But hopefully they will (and hopefully Israel is willing to accept a 2 state solution.). That's a lot of hopes.

I'm done with a 2-state solution. I had been a proponent of a 2-state solution for 50 years. People who purposefully burn babies, take them hostage, rape women while they crush their bones, mutilate their breasts and genitals, parade the fact on social media, brag about it to their parents, cheer it on in the streets as the raped women are paraded about, etc. are not eligible for a state of their own. They certainly won't be given the chance to do it ever again. All surveys show that over 70% of Palestinians support these actions.

This is a sick society nurtured by the UN for 4 generations and 75 years. Their children are trained to hate and there doesn't seem to be any going back. The Arab and Muslim world refuses to take them in. We have to defend ourselves and owe them nothing. They are not redeemable.