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- bbauska
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10 Jan 2023, 2:12 pm
Does anyone think there is any difference in the improper stowage of classified material from the way documents were stowed at Mar-A-Lago and the Penn Biden Center?
As someone who has dealt with government classified material for OVER 20 years, neither one was acceptable stowage. I am open to hear alternative viewpoints and the experience you have that would lead you to such an opinion.
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- rickyp
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11 Jan 2023, 1:06 pm
Criminal statutes are all dependent on intent. It was obvious that Trump took documents and he intended to take them. He returned a few, lied that he had returned everything (in response to a subpeona) and then hid the ones that he kept. So he knew what he was doing and he intended to keep the documents in violation of the law.
These have been locked up for years and were recently discovered. Biden's personal attorneys found them and they don't call Biden. They did what they are supposed to do, they called the WH Counsel's office and let them know what they found. The White House Counsel then notified the National Archives and the documents were immediately returned.
We don't even know if Biden is the one who didn't return them. It could have been someone on his staff and it appears to be a mistake, rather than something that was done intentionally. No one tried to destroy the documents, no one tried to hide them and they were returned promptly once they were found. There is absolutely no crime here. The documents were discovered on Nov 2 and the National Archives picked them up the next morning.
So even though there were documents found, it was a handful of them and everything was returned to the National Archives quickly. The US Atty out of Chicago is doing a preliminary investigation to figure out how the documents got to the Penn Biden Center in the first place. It's entirety possible that it was inadvertent. The legal and political tables haven't been turned at all.
- cheryl williams
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- bbauska
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11 Jan 2023, 6:09 pm
First off, Who is Cheryl Williams?
Secondly, I agree that President Trump was wrong to retain Classified materials without National Archive authority. If President Biden has such authority, then there is not a violation.
Without such authority, Biden's actions are a violation(s).
As for intent, we shall see the result of that through an investigation. To avoid any bias, Atty Gen Garland should appoint a special counsel by a Conservative investigator.
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- freeman3
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12 Jan 2023, 1:47 am
The initial classified documents found were 12...vs wait..
324 taken by Trump. These documents HE took from the White House in boxes and wasn't going to return them...then finally sent boxes back with classified docs...but not all of them...more turned up during a search...and still more later.
(a) Control. Trump did, Biden wasn't even using that office anymore
(b) Intent v negligence. Trump took the docs out in boxes, he was not cooperative with NARA. The massive number of classified docs indicates intent. Biden. Few docs , discovererd by his attorneys, immediately turned over, not using office. Lack of intent. Not even clear he was responsible for putting them there but looks more like negligence (which was NARA'S determination).
(c) # of classified docs--goes to intent and damage to national security. Trump took far more. Almost certainly more damage to national security if Trump docs got out than Biden's
(d)Cooperation. Biden did, Trump didn't.
(e) Damage to national security. More Trump than Biden
While there is a statute making it criminal for a person whose gross negligence allows classified docs to be taken from a secure site, doubtful if a high-ranking official like Biden if he sloppily took care of docs that he would be charged. Trump's far more egregious case with intent to keep classified docs should be charged. These cases are not remotely equivalent.
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- bbauska
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12 Jan 2023, 6:31 am
Wow, Freeman. I would have thought that you, as a lawyer, would not use the amount of money taken in a bank robbery as a definition if it was a bank robbery or not.
A) Control. True, Trump uses Lago, and Biden does not use Penn Center
B) Intent. We agree here as well. Biden is negligent. Are there more document locations that he is negligent about? Fair question...
C) # of documents. I think it does NOT matter. Classified Documents are supposed to be handled properly regardless of the amount of documents.
D) Cooperation. True. Biden is more conciliatory, and Trump is more belligerent. Personality traits. We have seen this in action with the foreign policy of both.
E) Damage to National Security. Depends... Do you have the info on what docs they were? I have read that they were intelligence documents pertaining to Ukraine, Iran and the UK (WSJ source).
Now that a second batch of documents have been found, is there a trend of "negligence" that this administration has been perpetrating.
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- bbauska
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12 Jan 2023, 12:40 pm
Edit to A) Control above:
The second "stash" of classified materials were found at the Wilmington Delaware home of President Joseph Biden (in the garage). I would think that constitutes control.
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- bbauska
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12 Jan 2023, 12:44 pm
I also applaud the Attorney General for his pick of special counsel (Robert Hur). I hope he can get to the bottom with honesty and integrity.
Perhaps Representative Schiff has a comment concerning the lack of document control.
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- bbauska
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14 Jan 2023, 6:40 pm
More Classified documents found in the Biden home.
https://www.npr.org/2023/01/14/1149071576/biden-classified-documents-what-we-knowOn Thursday, the White House described the review as being over. "The search is complete," White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre told reporters.
But on Saturday, Sauber, the White House lawyer, said he had found five more pages at Biden's Wilmington home on Thursday when he was working with DOJ officials to hand over what he had days earlier described as one final page of classified material.This is pretty close to how I feel regarding the comparison of Clinton/Trump/Biden handling of Classified documents and the Media response.
https://thespectator.com/topic/double-standard-for-the-biden-documents-trump-hillary/Some are saying that the documents were "Planted". By whom? Where was Gavin Newsome or the Matriarch; Former Madame Speaker. This paragraph is meant to be humorous. There is no evidence of planting... I guess I have been watching too many episodes of "Law and Order"?
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- freeman3
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14 Jan 2023, 9:34 pm
Well, we'll see what happens. What is it--15-20 docs compared to over 300 for Trump? For a criminal case you're going to need intent and I don't see how they get there. You can complain about his or his team's sloppiness but for a criminal case you need to prove intent (there is a gross negligence statute but I think the DOJ has basically decided--perhaps based on Gorin, a Supreme Court case--that intent is needed). And it's a much stronger case against Trump. The only thing I'm worried about is that it might weaken the case against Trump...
And that's where the speculation comes from about a plant. But I'm not going to go there without evidence.
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- bbauska
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15 Jan 2023, 8:40 am
How quickly should the report of security "errors" take to avoid the image of hiding the facts? Surely this is not pertaining to the intent, but it does show a lack of openness with the American people.
The documents were found 6 days before the election. Why was this information not provided to the people? To me, that shows intent to hide the information. Was it intent to commit the act?
I agree that we need to wait for the special counsel. I want that process to be clear and open.
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- freeman3
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15 Jan 2023, 4:02 pm
It was reported immediately to NARA. There was no intent to hide. And where did I say we need to wait for a special counsel? The only reason a special counsel was needed was to quiet Republicsn complaints and maybe head-off of a House investigation, but otherwise there is so low chance of a crime here that it's pretty much a waste of time. But we'll see what he comes up with.
Voters can hold the sloppiness against him. But it's not the kind of case the DOJ charges. See this defense of Hillary not being charged by..
The Cato Institute.
https://www.cato.org/blog/server-will-b ... ou-shortly
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- rickyp
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16 Jan 2023, 2:18 pm
bbauska
The documents were found 6 days before the election. Why was this information not provided to the people? To me, that shows intent to hide the information. Was it intent to commit the act?
If this bothers you you must be livid about repeated denials by Trump, refusal to respond to a subpoena, or legal letters claiming that there were no more documents?
I mean, perspective....
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/h ... ns-compare
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- bbauska
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16 Jan 2023, 4:29 pm
RickyP,
You are right. I was not happy with President Trump's lack of control of Classified Material. He was wrong. Biden is wrong also.
Are YOU able to say that both are showing improper handling of Classified Material?
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- rickyp
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17 Jan 2023, 7:25 am
bbauska
Are YOU able to say that both are showing improper handling of Classified Material?
Sure.
But I can also say only one acted criminally.
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- bbauska
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21 Jan 2023, 6:32 pm
https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/21/politics/white-house-documents/index.htmlMore security items found at President Biden's home. Some of them from 6-14 years ago!
The DOJ (Executive Branch Dept., run by the Executive himself - Pres. Biden) doesn't share information w/ Congressional leaders. When does this become intentional to hide material facts?
https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/20/politics/justice-department-jim-jordan/index.html“I think you’re going to find there’s nothing there. I have no regrets,” Biden continued on Thursday. When the President has "No Regrets" about his actions that are
security violations, I have a problem with his lackadaisical, REGRETTABLE actions