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Statesman
 
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Post 22 Jan 2023, 9:38 am

Still he hasn't
- had his lawyers lie about the status of documents
- ignored a subpoena to return documents
- attempted to obstruct the investigation
- Trump had at least 325 documents, over 60 classified top secret
- Biden had between 10 and 20

One could be characterized as misfiling.
The other espionage.
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Post 22 Jan 2023, 1:37 pm

rickyp wrote:Still he hasn't
- had his lawyers lie about the status of documents
- ignored a subpoena to return documents
- attempted to obstruct the investigation
- Trump had at least 325 documents, over 60 classified top secret
- Biden had between 10 and 20

One could be characterized as misfiling.
The other espionage.


I wouldn't rush to defend Ricky. There's a lot we don't know. The fact that Biden is cooperating may simply be that he understands that the cover-up is always worse than the crime. Give it time.
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Post 22 Jan 2023, 2:45 pm

I hear Ron Klain is quitting. Do you have your resume updated RickyP?

As to your list...
Trump:
- had his lawyers lied about the existence of other documents
- ignored a subpoena to return documents
- attempted to obstruct the investigation
- Trump had at least 325 documents, over 60 classified top secret
- Biden had between 10 and 20


His Press Secretary lied about other items
His DOJ is not releasing information to a co-equal branch of government tasked with oversight
His DOJ is not releasing information to a co-equal branch of government tasked with oversight
Neither President's numbers matter
Neither President's Classification violations matter

Trump and Biden are BOTH wrong. At least I can admit that.
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Post 22 Jan 2023, 3:48 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/22/opinions/biden-trump-classified-docs-stewart/index.html

This may be the first time I agree with CNN.
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Statesman
 
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Post 23 Jan 2023, 10:24 am

geojanes
The fact that Biden is cooperating may simply be that he understands that the cover-up is always worse than the crime.


First, define what crime Biden has committed... What criminal charges might he face..

Its pretty easy to name the potential charges Trump is facing.

If there wasn't a paper trail showing that Trump deliberately moved documents, you might be able to say it was a case of "poor filing".
After all, there is likely a lot of "classified" documents that have no real need to be documented... And the system itself has a lot to blame.
But when you get down to lawyers knowingly providing false information ...
And ignoring subpoenas...

(BTW Press secretaries lie all the time BBauska. Its part of the job description. But lawyers have a duty to the truth in their dealings with the courts ).
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Post 23 Jan 2023, 1:29 pm

RickyP:
Exactly why I asked if your resume was in order...

To all:
Neither Biden or Trump have been indicted. Personally, I think neither will be. That is EXACTLY why I think this is so wrong. It is a violation of protocols regarding the storage and security of classified materials by both men. Therefore, the intent argument holds little water when it comes down to what is right and wrong. Until one or both are indicted, the criminal argument is just the yapping of a toothless mouth. Until there is an indictment (or two!), stick to what is right or wrong.

In my opinion, both are WRONG.
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Post 24 Jan 2023, 7:20 am

rickyp wrote:geojanes
The fact that Biden is cooperating may simply be that he understands that the cover-up is always worse than the crime.


First, define what crime Biden has committed... What criminal charges might he face..



Clearly I don't have any expert knowledge, but the radio tells me that no one is permitted to hold secret documents in unsecured areas. He had secret documents in his house/garage from when he was a senator. If you've got to keep such documents secured, that probably doesn't qualify. I have no idea what the penalties are.

I'm just suggesting you shouldn't get in front of things. Just give the process the time it needs.
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Post 24 Jan 2023, 10:10 am

Yes, Brad not keeping classified in secured locations is wrong. Regardless of how they got there it's wrong.

Having said that, justice requires that in determining the blame worthiness of conduct we don't just lump two similar situations together and say they are equally wrong. Trump's case is far worse on multiple fronts: (1) number of documents taken (well over 300 versus around 20), (2) Control over the documents--Trump intentionally took 15 boxes of documents to his home filled with top secret docs whereas we really have no idea how the small number of Biden docs got there, (3) Trump's conduct looks more intentional due to the number of docs and his refusal to turn them over, (4) Trump obstructed the investigation by not turning them over whereas Biden cooperated.

Clearly, no reasonable mind could disagree that the criminal case against Trump is far stronger, regardless of whether a criminal case is filed. The two cases are not the SAME!

The main result of Biden's case is it may knock him out of the 2024 race and although it shouldn't it may undercut the case against Trump.
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Post 24 Jan 2023, 11:06 am

Freeman,
I agree that there is more that President Trump did. I am NOT saying that he was a great classified material handler. Surely he is not.

As I said, both Presidents are violators of Security handling protocols.

I think Biden's actions WILL keep him out of the 2024 Presidential race.
I think Trump's actions WILL keep him out of the 2024 Presidential race.

Not saying that either is a murderer... But a killer of 20 compared to a killer of 300.

THEY ARE BOTH KILLERS! I am not interested in who is worse. I have been one to say Trump was wrong from the beginning. With the action's of President Biden coming to light, I am saying he is wrong as well.

It does not matter who is worse. That is only cover for the current administration, rather than accepting responsibility.

If one of my kids stole a candy bar from the store, and said it is not as bad as his friend, Donny, because he stole 7 candy bars yesterday. Honestly, I would say BOTH are in deep "kimchi".

Right is right, and wrong is wrong.
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Post 24 Jan 2023, 11:31 am

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/politics/pence-classified-documents-fbi/index.html

Mike Pence embroiled in the Classified Document scandal. He is wrong, too. Even though he had 12 (approx.) items, which is less than 30, I still think it is wrong.

Perhaps you see how it works?
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Post 25 Jan 2023, 10:29 am

Yes, Pence's case is similar to Biden's--inexcusable sloppiness but not criminal. Trump's actions were criminal and he should be charged. One starts to wonder why all this is happening now because it sure is helpful to Trump.
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Post 25 Jan 2023, 3:05 pm

bbauska
"I think Trump's actions WILL keep him out of the 2024 Presidential race"

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/donald ... -president

He's already running. So that isn't true.

Republicans aren't concerned about the criminality of their representatives apparently. (we could make a list here...ending it with Santos. )
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Post 25 Jan 2023, 3:16 pm

Let me be more clear for you apparently...

Trump will not be in the general election. He will be in the primary and lose.

The fact that I am stating the criminal acts and lying about personal life (Santos) refutes your statement. I think Santos is horrible for lying to the electorate about his life and should be removed.

Do you think Santos should be REMOVED for lies to the electorate, even though they do not impact the office? I do. Do you think honesty matters enough to remove him for the lies?

A simple YES or NO on this one please. Not what someone else thinks, not an article from some think tank.

Your opinion, please.
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Post 05 Feb 2023, 6:59 am

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/3843099-three-potential-outcomes-of-the-wider-classified-documents-probe/

There was some discussion on this forum concerning "intent" being needed to make it a crime concerning classified material. I link the Hill article for the purpose of noting the lack of the word intent anywhere. To be clear:

To be certain, the stakes remain high because the “unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material” is a federal crime, as is obstructing justice, along with making false statements in “any matter within the jurisdiction” of the executive branch.

RickyP says only one of the two presidents acted criminally. I state that this article disproves that position. Will they be convicted? Time will tell, to be sure...
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Post 05 Feb 2023, 12:09 pm

It's more complex than that Brad. There is a federal statute making it a crime to with "gross negligence" allow classified documents to be removed from secured areas. The problem is that there is a Supreme Court case back in the 1940s on an espionage case that in order to find the statute not unconstituionally vague with what his meant by documents relating to "national security" the court read an intent requirement into that statute. The gross negligence statute has similar language about docs relating to national security so you would have to get around that old precedent somehow to bring a gross negligence case.

So while it is not 100% clear on how a court would interpret that statute, I've read that the DOJ has determined that intent is required. That's basically what Comey when about the Hillary case. (I am not saying that this is a publicly stated policy of the DOJ though I believe Comey said he believed based on precedents that intent was required). At the very least any criminal case based on poor handling of docs rather than intentional removal would be highly problematic.