Doctor Fate wrote:Personally, I wish the GOP would come on TV and say, "We have decided to give the President his biggest requests. We will immediately put forth legislation to close the hedge fund loophole and to adjust the deductions for private jets he's been bleating about. Now, perhaps he can tell us what cuts in spending he's willing to make. We eagerly await his plan to reduce our debt and put an end to endless deficit spending."

That would be absolutely awesome. Really. The system doesn't work without justice, and while I agree revenue-wise, it's rounding error, justice-wise such a move is huge.

But I don't think they will or can do this. It goes against the dogma, the faith, that all tax increases are bad, and many of them (in both parties) are owned by the few that get the benefit. *Sigh*

geojanes wrote:That would be absolutely awesome. Really. The system doesn't work without justice, and while I agree revenue-wise, it's rounding error, justice-wise such a move is huge.

But I don't think they will or can do this. It goes against the dogma, the faith, that all tax increases are bad, and many of them (in both parties) are owned by the few that get the benefit. *Sigh*

The reason it would be "awesome" is that it would show the President and the Democrats to be "awesome" frauds, perfectly content to spend our nation into bankruptcy.

Think about what the President has said in the face of this impending debt ceiling deadline. He (through Carney) demanded a "clean" raise. Since that became untenable, all he has done is talk about soaking the rich--even though he knows that cannot possibly close the deficit, nor help the debt situation as it will (at some point) slow the economy even more (and no, we don't know what that break-point is).

In other words, I want the GOP to call the President's bluff. At that point, he will be revealed as the Alfred E. Newman of American politics. He has no plan. He is no leader. He is in over his head.

That Kristof would jump on such a minor issue and try to inflate it just shows how desperate the Left is.

Doctor Fate wrote:

rickyp wrote:

A little more than half of American pays ZERO income tax. None. Zilch

But they pay payroll taxes... Taxes is taxes.

No, it's really not. You might as well say illegal immigrants pay gasoline taxes.

Well, they do, don't they?

Is a dollar that arrived in the Fed a different colour or something if it comes in from Income Tax to any other form of tax? Nope.

It's not irrelevant or somehow 'wrong' to compare total tax burdens. Arguably, it's a better measure than just taking one tax.

Doctor Fate wrote:The reason it would be "awesome" is that it would show the President and the Democrats to be "awesome" frauds, perfectly content to spend our nation into bankruptcy.

...

That Kristof would jump on such a minor issue and try to inflate it just shows how desperate the Left is.

Well, to me, it would be awesome because it would be a step in the direction of justice. In a different time, when you weren't so politically inflamed, perhaps you'd think so too? I know you think justice is important.

But you are politically inflamed. You see everything through a political lens. Do you think that this story was written because of a leftist conspiracy theory? That the democratic leadership contacted the NYT and had them feed this story to Kristof. I mean, I think he's currently in Niger, and doesn't normally write about this kind of stuff. So why did he choose right now to write about it? Your language suggests that you think there is a larger conspiracy to push this info out now.

danivon wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:No, it's really not. You might as well say illegal immigrants pay gasoline taxes.

Well, they do, don't they?

Mercy.

Is a dollar that arrived in the Fed a different colour or something if it comes in from Income Tax to any other form of tax? Nope.

Everyone who drives pays gasoline taxes. Everyone who works and uses a legitimate SS number pays payroll taxes (barring some odd exclusion). The point remains that more than half the population pays NO income taxes.

It's not irrelevant or somehow 'wrong' to compare total tax burdens. Arguably, it's a better measure than just taking one tax.

SS taxes are not very helpful in this discussion. Why not? Because the typical person receives far more in SSI payments than they ever paid in. That's one reason the system is going broke.

Gasoline taxes are a pittance compared to what the illegal immigration problem costs this country.

geojanes wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:The reason it would be "awesome" is that it would show the President and the Democrats to be "awesome" frauds, perfectly content to spend our nation into bankruptcy.

...

That Kristof would jump on such a minor issue and try to inflate it just shows how desperate the Left is.

Well, to me, it would be awesome because it would be a step in the direction of justice. In a different time, when you weren't so politically inflamed, perhaps you'd think so too? I know you think justice is important.

I could settle for a lot less justice if that meant a lot less deficit-spending. This is swatting at gnats while the house is burning down. The gnats might be annoying, but the fire is a good deal more important.

But you are politically inflamed. You see everything through a political lens.

Ah yes. You, on the other hand, are the dispassionate swing voter, right? Thus your inclination to focus on the gnats.

Do you think that this story was written because of a leftist conspiracy theory? That the democratic leadership contacted the NYT and had them feed this story to Kristof.

Not at all. I think it displays what most observers would readily profess: Kristof is detached from reality. He would rather review the violinist playing than take note of Rome burning to the ground.

I mean, I think he's currently in Niger, and doesn't normally write about this kind of stuff.

Perhaps brokering a deal for yellow cake?

So why did he choose right now to write about it? Your language suggests that you think there is a larger conspiracy to push this info out now.

Nah, it's just Sycophants for Obama getting warmed up.

Doctor Fate wrote:I could settle for a lot less justice if that meant a lot less deficit-spending. This is swatting at gnats while the house is burning down. The gnats might be annoying, but the fire is a good deal more important.

I get wanting to get something done, but if you sacrifice justice on the altar of efficiency, well, that's China, isn't it? Don't underestimate the power of justice. It is perhaps the only thing that can truly inspire people.

geojanes wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:I could settle for a lot less justice if that meant a lot less deficit-spending. This is swatting at gnats while the house is burning down. The gnats might be annoying, but the fire is a good deal more important.

I get wanting to get something done, but if you sacrifice justice on the altar of efficiency, well, that's China, isn't it? Don't underestimate the power of justice. It is perhaps the only thing that can truly inspire people.

Hmm, I tend to think genuine leaders inspire people, thus leading to justice (think MLK, Gandhi).

You don't really mean to say that raising taxes on hedge fund managers would inspire people, do you?

I know Kristof has been inspired by China (he thinks Shanghai's schools rock!).

If you could possibly take off your class warfare specs, you'd realize this is a puff of smoke.

Doctor Fate wrote:If you could possibly take off your class warfare specs, you'd realize this is a puff of smoke.

I guess the reflexive nature of name-calling requires you to throw out that expression "class warfare" when someone doesn't agree with you. But I'm not waging war among classes. I'm just working for peace, justice and the American Way, my man. You know I've been posting about taxes and the injustices found therein in these forums forever, and that my passion for this issue is not new to this Kristof article. Yet you think I have something against the rich? Absolutely not. I doubt there is a person on these boards who is a more accomplished capitalist than I am. Yet Randy calls me a communist and you claim I participate in class warfare.

Justice knows no class.

Here's who you're defending: Steven Schwartzman compared the possibility of paying the tax rates everyone else pays, instead of his nearly personal preferred 15% rate, to Hitler's invasion of Poland. Nice. I'm sure he does feel betrayed because I don't doubt he and a few hundred others like him paid a very pretty penny to be treated better than everyone else.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/7949062/Blackstone-chief-Schwarzman-likens-Obama-to-Hitler-over-tax-rises.html

The quest for fairness and justice is not class warfare. All people need to be treated equally and while there are many, many flaws in the tax code, this is certainly one of, if not the, worst of them all. So I'm back where you were a several posts ago. GOP should give up this one (and the jets), but they won't Schwartzman and his ilk have too much to lose and foot soldiers like yourself, who normally care about justice, are just going to let it pass. And that sucks.

geojanes wrote:I doubt there is a person on these boards who is a more accomplished capitalist than I am. Yet Randy calls me a communist and you claim I participate in class warfare.

This would all be so much easier to believe if you weren't carping about some relatively insignificant matter and were more concerned about the big picture. I just can't get as worked up about this as you. Why not? Because our government is spending money to send guns to criminals in Mexico. Because our government is hemorrhaging money in so many ways they can't even be tracked.

Justice knows no class.

Right. However, "economic justice" is based on class. If it were not, you would be able to quantify it. What is "fair?"

When it's all said and done, it's whatever you decide is fair. I think what is "fair" is having opportunity. You will inevitably lean toward outcome.

Here's who you're defending: Steven Schwartzman compared the possibility of paying the tax rates everyone else pays, instead of his nearly personal preferred 15% rate, to Hitler's invasion of Poland. Nice. I'm sure he does feel betrayed because I don't doubt he and a few hundred others like him paid a very pretty penny to be treated better than everyone else.

Please. Go ahead, link me to a demagogue. So what?

I'm not defending it. I am saying that you are jumping up and down about a trifling amount when the bigger problem seems not to bother you much.

The quest for fairness and justice is not class warfare. All people need to be treated equally and while there are many, many flaws in the tax code, this is certainly one of, if not the, worst of them all.

Fine, so people who work hard should not be penalized and those who WILL NOT work should not be rewarded, right? That's fairness, isn't it?

GOP should give up this one (and the jets), but they won't Schwartzman and his ilk have too much to lose and foot soldiers like yourself, who normally care about justice, are just going to let it pass. And that sucks.

What is unfortunate is that you wish to hitch your wagon to the Demagogue-in-Chief's. It is amazing that you can continue to harp on relative pennies as if it would actually accomplish something. Again, I wish the Republicans would concede this so they could show the President's position (and yours) to be utterly empty.

What "vital interest" would you move to next? The ills of paper bags? Plastic bags?

I can't wait!

Doctor Fate wrote:Gasoline taxes are a pittance compared to what the illegal immigration problem costs this country.

You have accurate figures for the net effect of illegal immigration on GDP and tax revenues and spending?

Please present them.

Still, you haven't demonstrated why the full tax burden is not relevant. I know that a lot of people don't pay Income Tax.

And I still don't see why you are defending the 'rights' of a small proportion of the super-rich (who produce nothing) by flinging mud at George.

Are you sure you really are a pastor and not a hedge-fund dealer?

Doctor Fate wrote:I'm not defending it. I am saying that you are jumping up and down about a trifling amount when the bigger problem seems not to bother you much.

For someone not defending it, you are sure talking a lot and attacking people who propose it.

You = Ricky with better spelling.

danivon wrote:You = Ricky with better spelling.

Ha!

danivon wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:Gasoline taxes are a pittance compared to what the illegal immigration problem costs this country.

You have accurate figures for the net effect of illegal immigration on GDP and tax revenues and spending?

Please present them.

Let me see if I have this straight: you, who probably believe illegal immigrants are getting a raw deal want me to prove that they're not?

No thanks. I'll cite stats that prove my point; you'll go to some Left-leaning site that will "prove" they pay more in taxes than they get.

To be honest, I don't really care. I only brought gas taxes up in the ridiculous context of "everyone pays payroll taxes."

Secure the border. Stop businesses from employing illegal aliens. Problem solved.

Still, you haven't demonstrated why the full tax burden is not relevant. I know that a lot of people don't pay Income Tax.

Because when a majority do not pay a tax, they have no stake in how high it goes. Now that we're at 50%+, why not just force the other slightly-less-than-half to pay more and more? Those who pay no income tax have no "skin in the game."

And I still don't see why you are defending the 'rights' of a small proportion of the super-rich (who produce nothing) by flinging mud at George.

I'm not.

If they produce nothing, how in the world do they get paid?

George is claiming not to play the class warfare card while flipping it over and over.

Are you sure you really are a pastor and not a hedge-fund dealer?

Are you sure I'm not a retired civil service worker, moonlighting as a hitman?

geojanes wrote:

danivon wrote:You = Ricky with better spelling.

Ha!

Yeah, classy. You (Danivon) make a substantive argument about once a week. If it weren't for "not so," argumentation, your post count would be zero.

As for George, fairly amazing. I've not defended hedge fund managers nor their tax rates, yet both of you nabobs keep nattering on as if I have.

All I've said, and I know it's hard to grasp, is that this is a smidgeon of mustard on a six-foot sub sandwich, but you keep carrying on like it's significant.

"Justice."

I'll give you justice--how about not passing our debt onto our great-grandchildren?

Closing the loophole George is fixated on? That might save 15 minutes of work.

That's okay. I can see how serious you are.