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Dignitary
 
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Post 14 Feb 2018, 4:20 pm

Doctor Fate wrote: I think most, more than most, Americans know we can't reduce legal immigration. If anything, we need to find ways to expand it.


That's not what Trump is saying. He wants to end chain migration. That's like 40% of the total legal immigrants every year. I think a lot of republicans and democrats agree on this, but not Trump and some of his hard core.
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Post 14 Feb 2018, 4:56 pm

geojanes wrote:
Doctor Fate wrote: I think most, more than most, Americans know we can't reduce legal immigration. If anything, we need to find ways to expand it.


That's not what Trump is saying. He wants to end chain migration. That's like 40% of the total legal immigrants every year. I think a lot of republicans and democrats agree on this, but not Trump and some of his hard core.


Meh, as I said, I think that is a negotiating position.

Furthermore, I think this would be something easy to fix. Illegal immigration on the other hand?

In other words, let's say Trump got everything he wanted, how long would it take to realize it was a mistake to cut immigration? My guess: not long. How much debate would there be about increasing it? Almost none.
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Post 15 Feb 2018, 8:15 am

rayjay
The stats are that legal immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born Americans, but that illegal immigrants commit crimes at a higher rate than the native population. It's very interesting that each side generally only posts one side of that equation.


What stats are those ...because..


Says Texas Department of Public Safety numbers show that 1.6 percent of crime is committed by unauthorized immigrants.

We asked Ewing to speak to Valdez’s 1.6 percent claim. By email, Ewing said he didn’t know "of any source of information that would allow that precise of an estimate of the share of crime attributable to undocumented immigrants. If there is a solid source for those numbers, I’d love to know what it is," Ewing wrote.
The council’s conclusion was echoed in a 2017 report from the libertarian Cato Institute stating, in part, that U.S. "immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated than natives relative to their shares of the population. Even illegal immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated than native-born Americans," Cato said. To be specific, the report said that in 2014, per Cato’s analysis rooted in the ACS, illegal immigrants aged 18 to 54 were 44 percent less likely to be incarcerated than natives in the age group.


http://www.politifact.com/texas/stateme ... account-1/
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Post 15 Feb 2018, 8:23 am

fate
You can't do what you did and not claim that in light of the claims made about Trump. I've heard innumerable liberals claim he said every Mexican is a murderer, rapist, or thief.


Well, if the quote him ... "some" are good people.

Thank you. It’s true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people
.

http://time.com/3923128/donald-trump-an ... nt-speech/
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Post 15 Feb 2018, 8:30 am

Fate
That last part is true, but I suspect it's a negotiating position. I think most, more than most, Americans know we can't reduce legal immigration. If anything, we need to find ways to expand it.


This is true apparently.

In the past quarter century there has been a dramatic change in Americans’ views about whether “immigrants today strengthen our country because of their hard work and talents” or whether they “are a burden on our country because they take our jobs, housing and health care.” In a 1994 Pew Research Center survey, 63 percent said they were a burden. Twenty-seven percent say that today. Thirty-one percent in 1994 said they strengthen the country; today 63 percent give that response.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bowmanmars ... 2aa2f624e6

Virtually every recent poll shows that the majority of Americans believe that illegal immigrants currently living in the United States should be given a chance to remain here legally. Fifty-nine percent in a new Quinnipiac poll of registered voters said they should be allowed to stay in the United States and to eventually apply for citizenship, and 9 percent said they should be allowed to stay but not to apply for citizenship. A quarter said they should be required to leave. In the exit polls in 2012 and 2016, 65 and 70 percent, respectively, of voters checked a box saying “illegal immigrants should be offered a chance to apply for legal status.” Twenty-eight and 25 percent, respectively, said they should be “deported to the country they came from.


And yet Trumps proposal reduce immigration, and Congress can't seem to respond to what Americans actually want and produce a path to citizenship for Dreamers and other illegals.
Perhaps because the issue is a wedge and used as such by demagogues or by congressmen who have a disproportionate number of those who are negative in their district. ?
Just another example of how the US system of governance no longer is responsive to a majority of citizens wishes...
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Post 15 Feb 2018, 12:28 pm

rickyp wrote:rayjay
The stats are that legal immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born Americans, but that illegal immigrants commit crimes at a higher rate than the native population. It's very interesting that each side generally only posts one side of that equation.


What stats are those ...because..


Says Texas Department of Public Safety numbers show that 1.6 percent of crime is committed by unauthorized immigrants.

We asked Ewing to speak to Valdez’s 1.6 percent claim. By email, Ewing said he didn’t know "of any source of information that would allow that precise of an estimate of the share of crime attributable to undocumented immigrants. If there is a solid source for those numbers, I’d love to know what it is," Ewing wrote.
The council’s conclusion was echoed in a 2017 report from the libertarian Cato Institute stating, in part, that U.S. "immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated than natives relative to their shares of the population. Even illegal immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated than native-born Americans," Cato said. To be specific, the report said that in 2014, per Cato’s analysis rooted in the ACS, illegal immigrants aged 18 to 54 were 44 percent less likely to be incarcerated than natives in the age group.


http://www.politifact.com/texas/stateme ... account-1/


Did you actually read the politifact article?

No, you didn't.

She made the claim. Politifact said they were unable to verify the low number.

Oh brother.

Then, CATO? The "open border" CATO?

Give me a break.
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Post 15 Feb 2018, 12:31 pm

rickyp wrote:fate
You can't do what you did and not claim that in light of the claims made about Trump. I've heard innumerable liberals claim he said every Mexican is a murderer, rapist, or thief.


Well, if the quote him ... "some" are good people.

Thank you. It’s true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people
.

http://time.com/3923128/donald-trump-an ... nt-speech/


So, he spoke inartfully. So what?

He did not say, "Every Mexican is a murderer, rapist, or thief."

There are many problems with what he did say.

However, to make my point, how many Illegal Aliens have started Fortune 500 companies?

The problem is you guys conflate illegal and legal immigration. Stop it.
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Post 15 Feb 2018, 2:50 pm

fate
Did you actually read the politifact article?


yes, which is why I posted it in reply to this

Rayjay
The stats are that legal immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born Americans, but that illegal immigrants commit crimes at a higher rate than the native population. It's very interesting that each side generally only posts one side of that equation.


What stats are those ...because..
The point being that reliable statistics don't seem to exist to support Rayjays statement.
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Post 15 Feb 2018, 2:58 pm

Fate
So, he spoke inartfully. So what?


He's your President.
Words matter.
The Presidents words should matter more.

fate
He did not say, "Every Mexican is a murderer, rapist, or thief.

No. He said
And some, I assume, are good people

He assumes, because he
1) Has no evidence that any are good but he's being generous?
2) By the law of averages, he figures some must be okay?
3) Some leaves room for his audience to assume Trump means "a minority". Or for his real core base they assume Trump means "very few". They hear what ever fits their world view..

For someone who says he didn't vote for, and who claims not to support, you sure defend Trump an awful lot Fate...
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Post 15 Feb 2018, 3:43 pm

rickyp wrote:fate
Did you actually read the politifact article?


yes, which is why I posted it in reply to this

Rayjay
The stats are that legal immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born Americans, but that illegal immigrants commit crimes at a higher rate than the native population. It's very interesting that each side generally only posts one side of that equation.


What stats are those ...because..
The point being that reliable statistics don't seem to exist to support Rayjays statement.


NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

You are a moron!

Those aren't "reliable statistics."

Long before Democrat Lupe Valdez declared her candidacy for governor, she differed with Republican incumbent Greg Abbott over the change in law put in place by Texas lawmakers this year to bar local communities from harboring immigrants living in the country illegally.

The state’s sanctuary cities bar, which as of December 2017 remained partially blocked by a federal judge’s ruling under state appeal, empowers local police officers to inquire into a person’s immigration status during routine encounters such as traffic stops. The law also requires local law enforcement to cooperate with federal immigration agents and to go along with detention requests placed on inmates suspected of illegal immigration. Senate Bill 4 imposes stiff fines and criminal charges on government officials who choose to ignore it.

In July 2017, according to a Dallas Morning News story, Abbott defended the law before the Sheriff’s Association of Texas, saying it "would remove from the streets dangerous criminals, not detain hardworking families and innocent children. I appreciate the strong support the law has received from so many sheriffs across Texas," Abbott said.

That story also quoted Valdez, then Dallas County’s fourth-term sheriff, calling the law a political tool to attack vulnerable Texans. "Throughout history, we've had a vulnerable group to pick on," Valdez said. "Now it seems to be Hispanics," Valdez said.

Valdez further said that Texas Department of Public Safety numbers show that only 1.6 percent of crime is committed by unauthorized immigrants, according to the story.

National research suggests that residents living in the U.S. without legal permission don’t account for a lot of crime. But we fell short of eliciting a full unpacking from Valdez about how she reached the 1.6 percent statistic nor did we independently find a way to confidently settle on a specific percentage.


More from YOUR article, that you READ *cough*

Valdez said DPS numbers show that 1.6 percent of crime is committed by unauthorized immigrants.

We didn’t find DPS figures or an understandable methodology to support a specific "1.6 percent" conclusion--nor did we work up what we’d consider a solid alternate estimate. Relevant data seems to be unavailable. Still, national research supports Valdez's point that people living in the U.S. illegally account for little crime.

On balance, we rate this claim Half True.


They could not back up her claim! Those aren't "reliable statistics."
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Post 15 Feb 2018, 3:45 pm

rickyp wrote:For someone who says he didn't vote for, and who claims not to support, you sure defend Trump an awful lot Fate...


Nope, I'm just not a liar.
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Post 16 Feb 2018, 6:59 am

Here's my source

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/45 ... rime-rates

I'd post more but the economy is heating up ...
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Post 16 Feb 2018, 7:23 am

Fate
They could not back up her claim! Those aren't "reliable statistics.


Gawd you're an idiot.
I pointed to a Politfact article that illustrated that reliable statistics on illegal alien criminal activity could not be found..... to ask Rayjay where his statistics came from. Specifically because the Polifact analysis declared that their exhaustive research showed no reliable stats.


Rayjay
Here's my source

Perhaps there is a neutral source because in here it seems to he's debating a critic of his methods ... Who seems to have roundly disputed his claims...
Not exactly a solid source. especially when he says this...

Illegal-immigrant crime data, regardless of source, likely understate crimes committed by illegal aliens. That’s because illegal-immigrant victims are less likely to report crime, and even if crimes are reported, illegal immigrants are less likely to appear as witnesses leading to conviction.


He's conflating crimes with victims... Consider that illegal aliens not reporting crimes against them has nothing to do with the level of crimes committed by illegal aliens.
Its not like illegal aliens only commit crimes on other illegal aliens.

Plus, as he points out, every illegal alien is committing a crime. What needs to be defined is what crimes they have committed beyond those required to hide in country. You know, the rapes and murders that Trump was alledging...
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Post 16 Feb 2018, 8:42 am

rickyp wrote:Fate
They could not back up her claim! Those aren't "reliable statistics.


Gawd you're an idiot.
I pointed to a Politfact article that illustrated that reliable statistics on illegal alien criminal activity could not be found..... to ask Rayjay where his statistics came from. Specifically because the Polifact analysis declared that their exhaustive research showed no reliable stats.



No, you moron. You said:

The point being that reliable statistics don't seem to exist to support Rayjays statement.


You can't use an absence of statistics as an argument to disprove his argument. In other words, you used a logical fallacy to try to disprove his statement.

Not only that, you didn't even state it well.

So, why don't you just go put a sock in it?

And, what of the Arizona study? It is the first time anyone purposed to look specifically and comprehensively at crimes committed by illegal aliens, and guess what?

While documented immigrants, or legal permanent residents, accounted for 3.9 percent of Arizona’s population in 2014, but only 1.5 percent of the prison population (which again shows why it’s inaccurate to lump documented and undocumented immigrants for any statistical purposes), undocumented immigrants account for 11.6 percent of first and second most serious offenses.

Further, undocumented immigrants in Arizona are consistently more likely to be convicted of murder, manslaughter, armed robbery, sexual assault of a minor, sexual assault, DUI or DWI, and kidnapping, among other serious crimes. And undocumented immigrants are 163 percent more likely to commit first degree murder than are U.S. citizens in the state.


So, there it is. You can keep making your illogical, fatuous statements. I'll go with facts.
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Post 16 Feb 2018, 10:16 am

The Arizona study is definitely concerning if accurate. The study was done by John Lott, a guy with a checkered history in the gun debate. It has already been pointed out that he used the classification "non-citizen deportable" as meaning only illegal aliens when of course it could mean immigrants who are here legally but are not citizens. I looked at the study and we don't have access to the raw numbers so we don't even know that his calculations are correct. This is the guy who put forth "studies" that right to carry laws reduced violence which have been contradicted by other studies. I would like to see a non-partisan researcher take a look at the Arizona data and verify Lott's conclusions rather than just rely on conclusions in a non-peer reviewed paper from a guy who is partisan on the issue. Again, concerning if accurate. But Lott's reputation is such that his findings cannot be relied upon unless corroborated.