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Post 02 Mar 2018, 12:29 pm

freeman3 wrote:That article is kind of like the Brahmin telling Untouchable to stop trying to divide with complaining about how things are...

We just had an election won a president catering to white prejudices, so now the issue is minirities making all the fuss? Another right-wing fantasy that the government has created racism/prejudice with its policies. There seems to be a tendency in the US to try and say we live in a post-racial society, no way anyone's views could be influenced by prejudice, and the real problem is minorities complaining about racism holding them back , with the exception of a very few.

Better to accept the reality that humans are inherently tribal (as Danivon notes) and deal with reality instead of a fantasy. It's a lot better than it used to be by prejudice did not end just because it is not overtly considered acceptable (which is a good thing by the way). You don't get to MLK' s Dream World by pretending you have already reached it...


Yes, human beings tend toward tribalism. There is no better example than our prison/jail systems. Visit one, spend some time there, and it is plain to see. Inmates segregate, and even fight, over trivial issues to prove their racial loyalty. It's pretty sad.

However, some of what you say here is straw-man-ish.

Another right-wing fantasy that the government has created racism/prejudice with its policies.


I don't feel that way at all.

However, I do think that as racism recedes, and it is receding, the Democrats are losing their ability to reach minorities with a message, so it's become all about brand loyalty. "Real (members of whatever group) vote Democrat."

That's not a message.

You don't get to MLK' s Dream World by pretending you have already reached it.


You also don't get it by pretending it's impossible OR by pretending that we still live in the 1950's.

There are many indicators racism is declining--the number of interracial marriages, the visible increase in interracial adoptions, the pathetic numbers that "white nationalist" rallies draw.

One will never stamp out prejudice. It is part of the human condition. However, we also live in a society in which it is fine to pretend it only goes in one direction. Prejudice is not limited by skin color--some people of every skin color are predisposed to dislike, or even hate, those of other colors.
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Post 02 Mar 2018, 12:30 pm

freeman3 wrote:You don't get to MLK' s Dream World by pretending you have already reached it...
This.
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Post 02 Mar 2018, 12:38 pm

I kind of think Democrats have not had to do much to keep the allegiance of minority groups. Hispanics, with a culture with conservative values (generally speaking), might have been a minority group that Republicans could have appealed to. I think they eventually saw anti-immigration sentiment directed at them in part and not just at illegal immigration. It's not what the Democrats have done...it's who Republicans have tried to appeal to.
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Post 02 Mar 2018, 12:56 pm

freeman3 wrote:I kind of think Democrats have not had to do much to keep the allegiance of minority groups. Hispanics, with a culture with conservative values (generally speaking), might have been a minority group that Republicans could have appealed to. I think they eventually saw anti-immigration sentiment directed at them in part and not just at illegal immigration. It's not what the Democrats have done...it's who Republicans have tried to appeal to.


Oddly, it is Democrats blocking a deal on DACA.
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Post 02 Mar 2018, 1:13 pm

Fate:
You also don't get it by pretending it's impossible OR by pretending that we still live in the 1950's.

There are many indicators racism is declining--the number of interracial marriages, the visible increase in interracial adoptions


This :)
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Post 03 Mar 2018, 8:58 pm

Just bought a car. I was not asked about my race, gender, religious affiliation, sexual identity or national origin. I was specifically listening and reading the forms on that. Perhaps my state is more progressive than the ones in the examples given by others.
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Post 04 Mar 2018, 1:43 am

bbauska wrote:Just bought a car. I was not asked about my race, gender, religious affiliation, sexual identity or national origin. I was specifically listening and reading the forms on that. Perhaps my state is more progressive than the ones in the examples given by others.
I think those rules are on mortgages applications, and as measuring tools.

Still, when you bought the car, did you get finance or not? Because it's the finance not the car purchase. And if you did get finance, did they see you in person at any point, did they know your name?

Just because you don't tick a box on a form doesn't mean people can't see your characteristics, or make assumptions about you.
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Post 05 Mar 2018, 10:16 am

danivon wrote:
bbauska wrote:Just bought a car. I was not asked about my race, gender, religious affiliation, sexual identity or national origin. I was specifically listening and reading the forms on that. Perhaps my state is more progressive than the ones in the examples given by others.
I think those rules are on mortgages applications, and as measuring tools.

Still, when you bought the car, did you get finance or not? Because it's the finance not the car purchase. And if you did get finance, did they see you in person at any point, did they know your name?

Just because you don't tick a box on a form doesn't mean people can't see your characteristics, or make assumptions about you.


When I bought the Jeep Patriot, (They didn't have a Tesla Libertarian or Chrysler Conservative on the lot!), I paid cash, negotiated in person, and bought the car from the same person I have bought 2 other cars from.

Are you trying to say that assumptions are a problem and need to be legislated as well? I guess I don't see agree with that, if that is your position.

I did ask a friend of mine this weekend about this very issue. He is an African- American (although he would say Black man), and he is in Pensacola. He said he has bought cars and there have been one instance where the dealer would not negotiate. To quote my friend "The dealer is poorer for that decision". My friend went to another dealer who treated him right.

You cannot fix people's assumptions about a customer. That customer can certainly move on to another vendor. Hopefully a vendor who makes wrong assumptions about a person goes out of business.
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Post 05 Mar 2018, 10:24 am

bbauska wrote:When I bought the Jeep Patriot, (They didn't have a Tesla Libertarian or Chrysler Conservative on the lot!), I paid cash, negotiated in person, and bought the car from the same person I have bought 2 other cars from.
Then your anecdote is not really relevant to the question of whether there are issues of discrimination in the car loan industry, is it?

Are you trying to say that assumptions are a problem and need to be legislated as well? I guess I don't see agree with that, if that is your position.
I am saying that assumptions and prejudice (they are close synonyms) can be a problem and should be measured. Where necessary, and where other means such as competition or social pressure don't work, legislation may be a viable option.

I did ask a friend of mine this weekend about this very issue. He is an African- American (although he would say Black man), and he is in Pensacola. He said he has bought cars and there have been one instance where the dealer would not negotiate. To quote my friend "The dealer is poorer for that decision". My friend went to another dealer who treated him right.

You cannot fix people's assumptions about a customer. That customer can certainly move on to another vendor. Hopefully a vendor who makes wrong assumptions about a person goes out of business.
Again, you seem to have confused anecdotes about the negotiation for the price of buying a car, with studies that compare the rates applied for car finance.

You asked for comparitive studies. I linked to a report that cited multiple studies. You respond with unrelated anecdotes. You think that is convincing?
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Post 05 Mar 2018, 10:35 am

I know the financing is different. Let's just all talk about the narrow focus of Danivon and RickyP. I will try to run my comments through you before posting. Thank you for your latitude.

I do find it odd that when I ask a yes or no question there is a great deal of verbage from the two of you without an answer. Somewhat of a dichotomy considering the way you want me to stay on the narrow focus of your point.
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Post 05 Mar 2018, 11:05 am

bbauska wrote:I know the financing is different. Let's just all talk about the narrow focus of Danivon and RickyP. I will try to run my comments through you before posting. Thank you for your latitude.
By all means change the subject. Just don't expect people not to notice you doing it.

I do find it odd that when I ask a yes or no question there is a great deal of verbage from the two of you without an answer. Somewhat of a dichotomy considering the way you want me to stay on the narrow focus of your point.

Your "yes and no questions" are often leading, and you like to base them on assumptions. When you ask me if I am "saying X" and "X" is not something I have actually said, it needs more than a "No" response, and frankly I am tired of the number of times I have had to correct you on your assumptions of what I believe. I want you to at least see what I am saying.

Besides, I responded to your challenge on data on car finance discrimination with studies that did what you wanted. Since then nothing. Seeing as you like a "yes or no question", here is one for you:

Do you acknowledge that there is evidence of racial discrimination in car finance?
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Post 05 Mar 2018, 12:36 pm

bbauska
I know the financing is different

then why did you introduce that which nothing to do with the issue ?
here's what you did ask....

bauska
Please show where the race is a component of the loan process resulting in higher loan costs based only on the race
.

I gave you an entire study. And you never acknowledged reading it, or even noticing it.

http://www.responsiblelending.org/other ... arkups.pdf

Several companies settled a class action law suit, that proved they were being discriminatory in lending. That alone should suffice as evidence that it happens.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33527783
http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/20/news/co ... index.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cons ... SKCN0VB2EO
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB107542237681415998
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Post 05 Mar 2018, 1:28 pm

Danivon,

Yes, I do acknowledge there is racial prejudice in ANYTHING. If you want to keep it just on car finance, fine.

My point is why should anyone pitch a fit about being mistreated by a vendor when the customer can take the money elsewhere.
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Post 05 Mar 2018, 8:13 pm

bbauska wrote:My point is why should anyone pitch a fit about being mistreated by a vendor when the customer can take the money elsewhere.
if the mistreatment is just by one vendor, sure. If it is systemic, then that may not work.
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Post 06 Mar 2018, 4:47 am

rickyp wrote:bbauska
I know the financing is different

then why did you introduce that which nothing to do with the issue ?
here's what you did ask....

bauska
Please show where the race is a component of the loan process resulting in higher loan costs based only on the race
.

I gave you an entire study. And you never acknowledged reading it, or even noticing it.

http://www.responsiblelending.org/other ... arkups.pdf

Several companies settled a class action law suit, that proved they were being discriminatory in lending. That alone should suffice as evidence that it happens.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33527783
http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/20/news/co ... index.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cons ... SKCN0VB2EO
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB107542237681415998


It is evidence that it happened in the past. After these lawsuits the companies substantially changed their policies on auto loans.