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Post 24 Nov 2017, 2:20 pm

Dags posted on this recently and I've was going to respond to it but the post got deleted so I will start a new one. I thought would try to identify some of the aspects involved with these allegations below:

(a) Power. These allegations concern an abuse of power. The power was created by a gap in wealth and social status, by an ability to affect employment of the victims and by the vulnerability of the victims. Those working in the TV and movie industry were vulnerable because if they complained they could lose an opportunity for a dream job and in Roy Moore's case the victims were young and that was the vulnerability.

(b) Vulnerabilty: Discussed above. Victims were chosen due to some vulnerability.

(c) Objectivication: Rather than treating these women as subjects--unique human beings with feelings that would be harmed by the misconduct--the abusers treated the victims as objects to be exploited. Typically, these abusers were men whose wealth and fame would attract women but that would requirement an investment in a relationship--finanicially and emotionally--that they were not willing to make.

(d) Satisfaction?: The abusers were not particularly successful in getting sex. However, they were able to exercise their power, their dominance of another person. That they apparently derived a certain amount of satisfaction from. Also whatever sexual contact they were able to obtain.

(e) Abettors: Clearly in most instances there would have been people aware of the misconduct who did nothing about it. They have been subject to the power of the abuser themselves and/or may not been aware of the full extent of harm that was being caused, may have not been aware of how extensive the misconduct was, or for whatever reason did not want to get involved. The point here is that power intimidates reporting of misconduct and keeps it hidden.

(f) Vetting: How are such claims to be assessed for authenticity? These types of allegations destroy careers. What is the media's role in substantiating them before going to press with them?

(g) Aberration vs Pattern: Where is the line between an isolated incident or incidents that can be forgiven and abhorrent behavior that makes a person unfit for a significant public career?

(h) Risk Assessment made by abusers: While the conduct was seemingly reckless, the abusers did clearly did recognize a line that was too risky to cross. Whether it was keeping things behind close doors, how they chose their victims, or drawing back from going further in harassment the abusers clearly made an assessment of how far they could go without taking too much of a risk of getting into trouble.
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Post 24 Nov 2017, 2:54 pm

There is so much shame.

Shame on the alleged perpetrators.

Shame on those who knew about it and did nothing.

Shame on those who know about it NOW and, for political purposes, choose to overlook it.

Shame on those who have covered it up. Shame on those who have persecuted victims to silence them. Shame on anyone who thinks we’ve seen the end of this.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Still.
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Post 24 Nov 2017, 9:10 pm

Dags asked me to delete it as he was going to publish it as an editorial elsewhere.
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Post 24 Nov 2017, 9:21 pm

How do you account for the increase of teachers abusing children?

Here is what it think should happen.

Roy Moore quits the race
Conyers resigns
Franken resigns


It is a character issue. It makes them unfit.
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Post 25 Nov 2017, 7:11 am

bbauska wrote:How do you account for the increase of teachers abusing children?

Here is what it think should happen.

Roy Moore quits the race
Conyers resigns
Franken resigns


It is a character issue. It makes them unfit.


And should Trump resign?
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Post 25 Nov 2017, 8:51 am

Ray Jay wrote:
bbauska wrote:How do you account for the increase of teachers abusing children?

Here is what it think should happen.

Roy Moore quits the race
Conyers resigns
Franken resigns


It is a character issue. It makes them unfit.


And should Trump resign?


I would much rather have Pence. Yes. Liberals should be careful what they wish for.
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Post 25 Nov 2017, 9:29 am

You're right, Brad--it's better for the Democrats if Trump stays in power and the Republican Party gets destroyed in the 2018 and 2020 elections. But I'll put the national interest over party here.
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Post 25 Nov 2017, 9:33 am

freeman3 wrote:You're right, Brad--it's better for the Democrats if Trump stays in power and the Republican Party gets destroyed in the 2018 and 2020 elections. But I'll put the national interest over party here.


Should Conyers and Franken resign, Freeman?
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Post 25 Nov 2017, 9:53 am

Yes. To be honest I hesitated a bit on Franken. I don't think his allegations are quite as bad and the political ramifications are far greater. I did check to see there is a Democratic governor. If there were a Republican I would have said he should fill out his term.

I am not sure why Trump should resign given that voters knew what he did when they went into the voting booth.
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Post 25 Nov 2017, 12:05 pm

freeman3 wrote:Yes. To be honest I hesitated a bit on Franken. I don't think his allegations are quite as bad and the political ramifications are far greater. I did check to see there is a Democratic governor. If there were a Republican I would have said he should fill out his term.

I am not sure why Trump should resign given that voters knew what he did when they went into the voting booth.


I think infidelity is a prohibitive regardless of when it happens, and regardless of what party's governor is in office.

Standards over politics.
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Post 25 Nov 2017, 1:25 pm

freeman3 wrote:You're right, Brad--it's better for the Democrats if Trump stays in power and the Republican Party gets destroyed in the 2018 and 2020 elections. But I'll put the national interest over party here.


Just as Democrats did during the Clinton years . . .

Oh. Never mind.
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Post 25 Nov 2017, 4:50 pm

Oh, please. Evangelicals in Alabama are largely ignoring what Moore did and are supporting him. From what I understand Conyers put some staffers through hell and that deserves resignation, regardless of the political effect. I just don't think that what Franken did on a one-time basis with each of these women really caused much emotional trauma. Working in the sexually charged environment that Conyers created is a different matter, though.

Human beings are flawed. We need talented people in government. And we don't want to exclude people from government just because they drank too much at a Christmas Party once and acted a bit inappropriately. At least I don't think we do.
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Post 25 Nov 2017, 7:13 pm

freeman3 wrote:Oh, please. Evangelicals in Alabama are largely ignoring what Moore did and are supporting him. From what I understand Conyers put some staffers through hell and that deserves resignation, regardless of the political effect. I just don't think that what Franken did on a one-time basis with each of these women really caused much emotional trauma. Working in the sexually charged environment that Conyers created is a different matter, though.

Human beings are flawed. We need talented people in government. And we don't want to exclude people from government just because they drank too much at a Christmas Party once and acted a bit inappropriately. At least I don't think we do.


I think I have cred here. I didn't vote for Trump precisely because he is a boor.

I cannot support Moore because there's too much smoke and his initial denials were, to me, embarrassing.

It's amazing how now, years after it would have had any impact, some liberals are decrying Bill Clinton's behavior as "disqualifying." That ship sailed.

I think Franken is on shaky turf. Conyers is smoked. He just doesn't know it yet.
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Post 25 Nov 2017, 7:33 pm

I am not an evangelical in Alabama. I stated my position. People are flawed, but to me infidelity shows such a flaw in character that I could not vote for such a person.
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Post 25 Nov 2017, 7:51 pm

I don't see the issue as infidelity. The issue to me is using power to obtain sex or some kind of sexual contact without consent. Infidelity is wrong but not on the same plane as that. I don't recall Clinton as using his power to coerce Lewinsky into a sexual relationship.

It's an abuse of power thing, not an abuse of trust thing. The latter may be deeply hurtful but in my opinion does not require banning from public life because it does not concern an abuse of power. The reason to ban people from positions of power when they abuse power is seemingly self-evident.