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Post 23 Dec 2017, 2:36 pm

rickyp wrote:Fate
With all due respect, that is daft. Try to import the Finnish model and employ it in South Central Los Angeles. Good luck


As always, your answer is that its no use trying to emulate systems that have worked to produce superior results because ... the US just can't do stuff that smells like "socialism". (Except of course medicare, social security, libraries, fire and police departments, the CDC and ...well most of the popular components of American society.)
So there's no use trying anything that works elsewhere.

Not everyone can be convinced by evidence or experts. However the longer people are exposed to, and informed about, systems that work better for the vast majority of the populace .... the closer to a tipping point society can get. Admittedly the US political system is corrupt, sclerotic and highly resistant to change. But even then, a tipping point can be reached...


As always, your reading skills are nearly non-existent. Well, or you’re being dishonest.

Is Finland fairly homogeneous? Is Los Angeles? Did I not write this would be one of the hurdles?

So, which is it? Are you dishonest or dumb?
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Post 24 Dec 2017, 11:53 am

As always, you don't get it.

The primary aspect of the Finnish system is that every student and every school system is treated equally. That means that throughout the country each student has an equal opportunity.
Parents can focus on their children's progress, working with the teachers who are professional, well educated and student centered.

What Bbauska and you have been focused on is "choice". Choice, in a very unequal society leads to more inequality of opportunity.
School systems tend to be funded by a local tax base and there are huge socio economic differences that inevitably lead to huge differences in the provision of educational services.
With huge differences, those parents with the income and wherewithal, can choose to retreat from poor school systems and the situation gets worse. (Not judging the parents who leave. I would)

The diversity in Los Angeles shouldn't matter. Toronto is far more diverse and the school system is pretty good. (Not near Finland however.) Give each school the resources they require, starting with
well paid, very well educated, respected teachers ... and you are one step along the way.
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Post 24 Dec 2017, 12:33 pm

rickyp wrote:As always, you don't get it.

The primary aspect of the Finnish system is that every student and every school system is treated equally. That means that throughout the country each student has an equal opportunity.
Parents can focus on their children's progress, working with the teachers who are professional, well educated and student centered.

What Bbauska and you have been focused on is "choice". Choice, in a very unequal society leads to more inequality of opportunity.
School systems tend to be funded by a local tax base and there are huge socio economic differences that inevitably lead to huge differences in the provision of educational services.
With huge differences, those parents with the income and wherewithal, can choose to retreat from poor school systems and the situation gets worse. (Not judging the parents who leave. I would)

The diversity in Los Angeles shouldn't matter. Toronto is far more diverse and the school system is pretty good. (Not near Finland however.) Give each school the resources they require, starting with
well paid, very well educated, respected teachers ... and you are one step along the way.

As always, you don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m sorry, but the gangsters in LA would eat whatever gangsters are in Toronto like a tiny bag of potato chips. You really have no idea what you’re talking about.

And, I’ll ask the basic question: how much money will fix the LAUSD? Be specific. And, why won’t the socialists in Los Angeles spend it? Whatever price tag you throw on it could be met, so why isn’t it?

Here’s a hint: I have a socialist friend who teaches in LA. I think I’ve mentioned him before. While teaching in South Central, he had his life threatened, his property stolen, and parents were antagonistic when they could be tracked down.

How much money will it take to hire good teachers to work in those conditions? Would you risk your life to teach in South Central?

And, how does that compare to Finland?
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Post 27 Dec 2017, 1:36 pm

So its your contention that gangs in California make it impossible to improve the educational system?
There's just no hope then?

https://psmag.com/social-justice/the-en ... rime-95498

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/18/opin ... of-la.html

I'\ve linked a couple of stories about the decline of gangs in LA. Apparently due to gentrification of gang neighborhoods,much better policing and the success of families in keeping children from the gangs..

Strikes me that nothing you've said negates the appeal of the Finnish model for education... And long term, a better educational system that offers equal opportunity for all children who enter the system will provide the hope that will keep children from the desperation that makes gang life attractive.
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Post 27 Dec 2017, 3:53 pm

rickyp wrote:So its your contention that gangs in California make it impossible to improve the educational system?
There's just no hope then?

https://psmag.com/social-justice/the-en ... rime-95498

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/18/opin ... of-la.html

I'\ve linked a couple of stories about the decline of gangs in LA. Apparently due to gentrification of gang neighborhoods,much better policing and the success of families in keeping children from the gangs..

Strikes me that nothing you've said negates the appeal of the Finnish model for education... And long term, a better educational system that offers equal opportunity for all children who enter the system will provide the hope that will keep children from the desperation that makes gang life attractive.



Image

I did not say it "is impossible to improve the educational system (of California)" because of gangs. However, I did say it is idiotic to compare it to Finland.

Two years ago, 89% of Finns reported Finnish as their native language. Do you suppose 89% of Angelenos will say English is their native language? According to this link, about 30% cannot say they "speak it very well." http://www.laalmanac.com/LA/la10.php

Just look at the list of languages!

You act as if the LIBERALS of Los Angeles have never conceived of making their school system more LIBERAL!

Do you realize how stupid that is?

And again, how much money should LAUSD spend on it? How will they recruit teachers willing to risk their lives as they are disrespected, disregarded, and threatened by the students they are there to teach?
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Post 28 Dec 2017, 8:47 am

So what is the evidence that a voucher system (or whatever the alternative you favour is) works better in a "less homogeneous" area?

Does that actually affect the question of how best to organise education, or is it just a convenient excuse to ignore Finland?
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Post 28 Dec 2017, 8:53 am

On this page http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 25391.html , the next countries after Finland are Belgium and Switzerland. Both have significant diversity in language. Switzerland has a high level of immigration.

Next after those three is Singapore. Again, diverse in terms of ethnic backgrounds, language, religion and with a high level of immigration.

Please explain why the US cannot learn from any of them.
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Post 28 Dec 2017, 9:08 am

danivon wrote:So what is the evidence that a voucher system (or whatever the alternative you favour is) works better in a "less homogeneous" area?

Does that actually affect the question of how best to organise education, or is it just a convenient excuse to ignore Finland?


No, it is to point out the obvious: there are massive cultural differences.

Again, if Finland's educational system is so wonderful, why haven't the ruling socialists of Los Angeles appropriated it?
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Post 28 Dec 2017, 9:11 am

danivon wrote:On this page http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 25391.html , the next countries after Finland are Belgium and Switzerland. Both have significant diversity in language. Switzerland has a high level of immigration.

Next after those three is Singapore. Again, diverse in terms of ethnic backgrounds, language, religion and with a high level of immigration.

Please explain why the US cannot learn from any of them.


No thanks. Why don't you explain how LA can take those plans and apply them. Furthermore, again, when you have socialists in charge of Los Angeles' education system, why don't they?
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Post 28 Dec 2017, 10:42 am

Fate
I did not say it "is impossible to improve the educational system (of California)" because of gangs

So gangs aren't an insurmountable problem. Good.
But diversity is?
And yet other nations with greater diversity than California seem to have achieved better results than California . How is it that they overcome this problem, but you think its impossible for California to over come?

The US, and particularly California have huge advantages in wealth per capita over every one of the nations you've been asked to consider... Yet, even with those advantages California, or other US states are equipped to deal with less diversity?

Fate
Why don't you explain how LA can take those plans and apply them. Furthermore, again, when you have socialists in charge of Los Angeles' education system, why don't they

The explanation is : "resistance from various stake holders and constituents and political actors fueled by"
- ignorance of the foreign examples as alternatives.
- ignorance of the competitive ranking that the US system finds itself in
- xenophobia which disallows the use of foreign examples
- ideological blindness which compels opposition to any idea not espoused by an ideological ally
- ignorance of the concept of "Applying best practices". This was once a problem for certain sectors of the American economy. (Car manufacturing for example). But is followed fairly religiously by most senior American executives.... Unfortunately the concept seems not to be applied by political actors.
- a sclerotic political system that makes change difficult.
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Post 28 Dec 2017, 11:16 am

rickyp wrote:Fate
I did not say it "is impossible to improve the educational system (of California)" because of gangs

So gangs aren't an insurmountable problem. Good.
But diversity is?
And yet other nations with greater diversity than California seem to have achieved better results than California . How is it that they overcome this problem, but you think its impossible for California to over come?


Just stop with the BS. Please.

1. To say they are not "an insurmountable problem" does not mean they are an "insignificant problem." There are several areas of California, including Bakersfield, that have precincts dominated by gang activity.

2. "Nations with greater diversity than California." That's crap. Which nations have greater diversity? Don't say "Switzerland." I posted a list of all the primary languages spoken in Los Angeles. Please post a LONGER list for Switzerland.

The US, and particularly California have huge advantages in wealth per capita over every one of the nations you've been asked to consider... Yet, even with those advantages California, or other US states are equipped to deal with less diversity?


Again, prove the point rather than assuming it--and being an ass about it.

Fate
Why don't you explain how LA can take those plans and apply them. Furthermore, again, when you have socialists in charge of Los Angeles' education system, why don't they

The explanation is : "resistance from various stake holders and constituents and political actors fueled by"
- ignorance of the foreign examples as alternatives.
- ignorance of the competitive ranking that the US system finds itself in
- xenophobia which disallows the use of foreign examples
- ideological blindness which compels opposition to any idea not espoused by an ideological ally
- ignorance of the concept of "Applying best practices". This was once a problem for certain sectors of the American economy. (Car manufacturing for example). But is followed fairly religiously by most senior American executives.... Unfortunately the concept seems not to be applied by political actors.
- a sclerotic political system that makes change difficult.


That's a really nice list of assumptions on your part. Well, except for the "xenophobia." Again, do you really want to say that Los Angeles, a "sanctuary city" in which there are nearly as many Spanish-speaking radio stations as English-speaking ones, is "xenophobic?" Based on what? Because Canadians think so?

"Ideological blindness?" Dude, they all hit from your side of the plate!
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Post 28 Dec 2017, 11:19 am

Seriously, I googled. It took a second. You're so full of something that only a full-strength laxative will help.

German (or Swiss German) (official) 63%, French (official) 22.7%, Italian (official) 8.1%, English 4.9%, Portuguese 3.7%, Albanian 3%, Serbo-Croatian 2.4%, Spanish 2.2%, Romansch (official) 0.5%, other 7.1%
note: German, French, Italian, and Romansch are all national and official languages; totals more than 100% because some respondents indicated more than one main language (2015 est.)


https://www.indexmundi.com/switzerland/ ... ofile.html
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Post 02 Jan 2018, 11:42 am

Doctor Fate wrote:
danivon wrote:So what is the evidence that a voucher system (or whatever the alternative you favour is) works better in a "less homogeneous" area?

Does that actually affect the question of how best to organise education, or is it just a convenient excuse to ignore Finland?


No, it is to point out the obvious: there are massive cultural differences.

Again, if Finland's educational system is so wonderful, why haven't the ruling socialists of Los Angeles appropriated it?

Because they aren't actually socialists?

And does that mean you are ignoring my actual question about whether diversity makes a difference to alternatives to the current system or not.

It is almost as if it is more important for you to attack "socialists" than solve a problem...
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Post 02 Jan 2018, 6:22 pm

danivon wrote:
Doctor Fate wrote:
danivon wrote:So what is the evidence that a voucher system (or whatever the alternative you favour is) works better in a "less homogeneous" area?

Does that actually affect the question of how best to organise education, or is it just a convenient excuse to ignore Finland?


No, it is to point out the obvious: there are massive cultural differences.

Again, if Finland's educational system is so wonderful, why haven't the ruling socialists of Los Angeles appropriated it?

Because they aren't actually socialists?

And does that mean you are ignoring my actual question about whether diversity makes a difference to alternatives to the current system or not.

It is almost as if it is more important for you to attack "socialists" than solve a problem...


If the LA School Board isn’t comprised of socialists, then the word has no meaning.

I think it is YOU who is missing the point. The diversity of language, culture, and other factors (like gangs and crime) make implementing the Finland model difficult, if not impossible. Throw in unreasonable unions and parochial political interests and . . . there’s no chance.
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Post 04 Jan 2018, 7:28 am

Doctor Fate wrote:
If the LA School Board isn’t comprised of socialists, then the word has no meaning.
It has a meaning. Just not the one that many Americans ascribe to it.

I think it is YOU who is missing the point. The diversity of language, culture, and other factors (like gangs and crime) make implementing the Finland model difficult, if not impossible. Throw in unreasonable unions and parochial political interests and . . . there’s no chance.

No, I understand your point. I am not convinced that it is totally correct, but I get the argument. I have seen it many times before, in various places, but definitely here.

However, my question, which you are trying to avoid answering, is why the model you support would work given the issues you say work against the Finnish model.

Because whatever changes you want to make to the LA education system, they will be a factor, won't they?