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Post 04 Jan 2018, 8:35 am

danivon wrote:However, my question, which you are trying to avoid answering, is why the model you support would work given the issues you say work against the Finnish model.


I think you may be conflating my views with those of bbauska. I don't believe I've advocated *for* a position.

Would vouchers help in, say, South Central? In some cases, I think so. There is a flaw, however, Now, I have to preface what I'm going to say with this: I think our culture generally has moved away from a good parenting model. Too many parents have their kids on autopilot: the children and the Internet/game machine raise themselves.

However, I think the effect is more damaging in lower socio-economic areas because the outside influences (gangs, drugs, etc.) are more powerful and pervasive. Kids in Beverly Hills are just as likely, if not more likely, to turn out to be self-centered jerks. However, as they will have nannies and others to raise them, their influences are less likely to be felonious.

The social and economic conditions have to be addressed, which is not something government does well, in my opinion.

Because whatever changes you want to make to the LA education system, they will be a factor, won't they?


For the most part.

However, one would not. I believe teachers must be afforded the highest respect. I would institute dramatic discipline for kids who do not comport themselves well. A learning environment cannot be one containing cursing, mocking, etc. Far too much effort is spent on the student's self-esteem and far too little on the esteeming of others.
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Post 04 Jan 2018, 9:23 am

All I have advocated "for", is the per student monies being spent on public school system, be allowed to be given to other school systems based upon enrollment. To me, it is a freedom issue.
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Post 04 Jan 2018, 9:29 am

bbauska wrote:All I have advocated "for", is the per student monies being spent on public school system, be allowed to be given to other school systems based upon enrollment. To me, it is a freedom issue.


This is, in effect, vouchers, yes?

I have no problem with it. I just don't know that it will solve the worst problems of our system. It will certainly help some students.
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Post 04 Jan 2018, 10:49 am

Not all problems are solvable. There are some who choose to not take the education seriously. More money will not remedy that attitude.
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Post 04 Jan 2018, 11:39 am

Bbauska, so basically your position is based on ideology rather than on what is the better choice in terms of outcomes. Yeah, "freedom". For parents to decide. But education is actually supposed to be about what is best for the students and the wider society they are going to live in.
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Post 04 Jan 2018, 11:44 am

DF, I think there has to be some discipline. There also needs to be a general (parental and wider) change in expectations for kids - not writing them off because of their background, or reducing their ambitions. But I think that can work in any system and relies largely on external factors rather than in schools themselves.

However, there comes a point where discipline goes too far and doesn't really work.
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Post 04 Jan 2018, 11:56 am

Danivon,
Perhaps you don't understand my position. I want the best for the child in question as well. If a parent is not acting in the best interest of the child, then revoke the parents authority via the court system.
I think the public school system is NOT the best choice in all cases. I think all students should have the money available to their educational needs. I think private and homeschool systems are not the best choices in all cases as well.
What we differ on is who is ultimately responsible for making the choices concerning education, and why some students get the benefit of supported education when all deserve it.
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Post 04 Jan 2018, 12:00 pm

danivon wrote:DF, I think there has to be some discipline. There also needs to be a general (parental and wider) change in expectations for kids - not writing them off because of their background, or reducing their ambitions. But I think that can work in any system and relies largely on external factors rather than in schools themselves.

However, there comes a point where discipline goes too far and doesn't really work.


Sure, and for those kids, there are several choices: 1) reform school; 2) trade school; 3) prison.

Seriously, I was physically disciplined at a public school. Somehow, perhaps by Divine intervention, I survived.

We have a real problem when misbehaving is encouraged and teachers are afraid. And, I mean "any teacher." We say we value them, then we underpay them and allow them to be treated like garbage.