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Post 04 Oct 2017, 6:56 pm

freeman3 wrote:We go and on about whether the minimum wage causes the loss of jobs or what-not. But it doesn't matter though. A worker who works full-time should be able to support him or herself without assistance. Period. We can make other adjustments to account for any dislocation. And we will have the established the fundamental principle that if you work full-time...you will earn enough to support yourself and be recognized as such.

The right of a business owner to have his business subsidized by the rest of society...so he can pay workers less than a subsistence rate...is not a right at all.


So, you’ve run a restaurant? You’ve competed in that market?

Do you suppose service industry managers might understand the business better than you?

Do you suppose that raising all wages might also raise prices, resulting in inflation?
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Post 04 Oct 2017, 7:50 pm

The minimum wage law applies to all businesses...are you saying that one needs to run a business in all sectors of the economy before one can have an opinion on the matter? (I have been a sole practitioner with employees.) They might wind getting more business because low-wage workers have more money in their pocket. As I said, what happens when the minimum wage is complex with factors going in both directions. I don't think businesses get to have some kind of veto. Anyway, I'm not sure why they would be in a better position to give an opinion on a minimum wage hike. Of course they will oppose a rise in labor costs with the uncertainty of whether they can either pass those costs on to the consumer or will get increased sales. I understand the argument. Do I need to actually run a McDonald's to know that?

In any case, their particular self-interest falls to a larger principle: if you work full-time you should be able to minimally support yourself. The economy will adjust. The sky will not fall. It is absurd that Wal-Mart gets subsidized by the rest of us because it's low-wage workers are entitled to governmental assistance because they make so little.
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Post 04 Oct 2017, 8:15 pm

Luke 12:15: "Watch out. Be on your look-out against all kinds of greed. Life does not consist in an abundance of possessions."

Matthew 6:24: "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

Matthew 21: 12-13: "Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 “It is written,” he said to them, “ ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’”

Oh yes...Jesus was a big capitalist.
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Post 04 Oct 2017, 8:25 pm

freeman3 wrote:The minimum wage law applies to all businesses...are you saying that one needs to run a business in all sectors of the economy before one can have an opinion on the matter? (I have been a sole practitioner with employees.)


What would happen if you offered minimum wage?

My guess: you could not hire qualified employees.

That’s what the minimum wage is about. It’s not supposed to support someone. It’s not supposed to be “a living wage.” It is for kids. It is for people with no skills. It is “work” until one is qualified to get something better.

The number of adults trying to sustain themselves and/or others on minimum wage is negligible.

On the other hand, make it $15 an hour and the jobs for the unskilled will become more scarce.

They might wind getting more business because low-wage workers have more money in their pocket. As I said, what happens when the minimum wage is complex with factors going in both directions. I don't think businesses get to have some kind of veto.


Because government knows best?

Anyway, I'm not sure why they would be in a better position to give an opinion on a minimum wage hike. Of course they will oppose a rise in labor costs with the uncertainty of whether they can either pass those costs on to the consumer or will get increased sales. I understand the argument. Do I need to actually run a McDonald's to know that?


No, but you actually have to think about the consequences. If you double labor costs, do you suppose that any business can simply absorb that, especially one as competitive as restaurants?

In any case, their particular self-interest falls to a larger principle: if you work full-time you should be able to minimally support yourself.


Based on what principle is this “should?” Who decides what is “minimal?” Why?

The economy will adjust. The sky will not fall.


Why shouldn’t the government mandate everything? Wages, housing, what kind of car you can drive, what kind of food you can eat? After all, if government is doing what is for the greater good, how can we argue with that? If some people have to make sacrifices, that’s what democracy is all about, right?

It is absurd that Wal-Mart gets subsidized by the rest of us because it's low-wage workers are entitled to governmental assistance because they make so little.


If people didn’t shop there, it wouldn’t work.

On the other hand, we could establish “Government-Mart” to compete with it.

I wonder who would win?
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Post 04 Oct 2017, 8:29 pm

You are right that businesses don't get to veto that decision.

Also true, is that Government does not get to veto firing of an employee.

Can you admit that the minimum wage causes people getting fired?
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Post 04 Oct 2017, 8:29 pm

freeman3 wrote:Luke 12:15: "Watch out. Be on your look-out against all kinds of greed. Life does not consist in an abundance of possessions."

Matthew 6:24: "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

Matthew 21: 12-13: "Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 “It is written,” he said to them, “ ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’”

Oh yes...Jesus was a big capitalist.


Are any of those verses teaching about economic theory? Government?

Did Jesus condemn money? Did He believe in progressive taxation? Did He say, “From each according to his abilities; to each, according to his need?” Was He in favor of 5-year plans?

When the mobs wanted to make Jesus king, what did He do?

When Peter cut off the ear of a Roman guard, what did Jesus say?

Who did Jesus claim to be?

Taking 3 verses out of context is no way to win a theological argument.
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Post 04 Oct 2017, 9:40 pm

I rest my case. Jury?
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Post 05 Oct 2017, 6:12 am

freeman3 wrote:I rest my case. Jury?


What case? That Jesus hadn't read Adam Smith? That He was a fan of Karl Marx?
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Post 05 Oct 2017, 7:01 am

freeman3 wrote:I rest my case. Jury?


I take it back: you will never be a Republican.

What you are saying is that you are in favor of a minimum wage of $0. You would rather someone be fully on the dole than make $11 an hour and be partially on the dole.
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Post 05 Oct 2017, 7:29 am

No I would rather people be treated with respect. Paying a person less money than they need to survive on is not recognizing them fully as a person.

And how do we know there is going to be a net loss of jobs, anyway? For those who get higher wages there is more money in their pocket. They will spend more. This increased demand means some employers will need to hire more people.

And in any case we don't put the lack of ability of the economy to grow enough jobs on the backs of poor people. Pay people enough to live on. It is required for their respect and dignity as a person. You have to work 2,000 hours a year AND get handouts? Come on.

And,no, they should not have to work than 2,000 hours to get that.
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Post 05 Oct 2017, 7:54 am

Jesus the human person may not have read Marx but God knows everything. And would Jesus say somethingcontradictory to God? No. Therefore, Jesus's words are applicable to all potential economic systems, including Capitalism.

Larry David: "That's good theology. Pretttttttty...pretttttty...pretttttty...good."
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Post 05 Oct 2017, 8:08 am

freeman3 wrote:Jesus the human person may not have read Marx but God knows everything. And would Jesus say somethingcontradictory to God? No. Therefore, Jesus's words are applicable to all potential economic systems, including Capitalism.

Larry David: "That's good theology. Pretttttttty...pretttttty...pretttttty...good."


He also said, (Jn. 13:27 ESV) "What you are going to do, do quickly."

Does that apply to government?

The answer to your question is, "No, God would not say something contrary to God." In fact, He said over and over that He came to do the Father's will, that He says what the Father tells Him to do, and does only what the Father wants. He was the perfect Man and yet truly Divine.

His warnings about wealth were because men make wealth their god. They worship money. Worshiping anything other than God is idolatry. And yet, Jesus received worship.

(Jn. 9:35-38 ESV) Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
36 He answered, "And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?"
37 Jesus said to him, "You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you."
38 He said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.
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Post 05 Oct 2017, 8:53 am

freeman3 wrote:Jesus the human person may not have read Marx but God knows everything. And would Jesus say somethingcontradictory to God? No. Therefore, Jesus's words are applicable to all potential economic systems, including Capitalism.


Freeman, this is a rabbit hole you can't get out of and you will never win nor add to the discussion.
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Post 05 Oct 2017, 9:54 am

Oh I made my argument. I am not going to keep arguing it. DF gets the last word.
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Post 05 Oct 2017, 10:13 am

Should a 16 year old be paid a minimum wage so he/she can have a "sustainable wage"?

I am all for a person being treated with respect. They should be. I disagree with your premise that $11/hr is disrespectful. I also disagree that a person has to be paid a "living wage". The employee makes the choice to work at a place or not. It is not a mandatory that a person if forced to accept a job they feel if beneath their desired wage.

I was offered a call center IT position when I retired from the military for $12/hr. Needless to say, I CHOSE not to accept that position. 2 weeks later, I accepted a minimum wage job as a barista for a couple months. It was fun, but I didn't stay there. I got an $18/hr tech job, and blew my spine out. I was retrained as a real estate agent, and worked my way up to owning the business.

Please note that the minimum wage job was MY choice. It was temporary, and those jobs are needed for people. To eliminate some of them with an increase of minimum wage is the heartless decision that some in the Government have chosen.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/columnists/dan-mcswain/sd-fi-minimum-wage-job-losses-restaurants-20170406-story.html