Join In On The Action "Register Here" To View The Forums

Already a Member Login Here

Board index Forum Index
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 2894
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 30 Nov 2017, 11:30 am

The Dow has gone from 7,000 to 24,000 since 2008...yeah, corporations really have it rough. Last election Sanders had the most support from the left while the right elected a populist identity/proto Fascist. That tells you there is a lot of dissatisfaction when people are so mad they are turning to extreme alternatives, one blaming the wealthy, the other blaming immigrants/other racial groups. But all of the dissatisfaction ultimately comes down to limited opportunities. So, yeah, let's give corporations and ultimately the wealthy another break...
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 2894
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 01 Dec 2017, 1:01 am

Steve Schmidt--a moderate Republican who was McCain's campaign chairman in 2008--said that the fundamental driver in American politics today is that the average American worker has not had a wage increase in a generation and that is causing a crisis in faith of American capitalism to deliver the goods. I would add..that is why we are getting more extreme candidates.

Steve Schmidt pointed out that the bill does nothing to help the average workers and adds another 1.5 trillion in debt. Which I would add makes it even more difficult to do anything to help wages.
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 20825
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 01 Dec 2017, 7:28 am

freeman3 wrote:Steve Schmidt--a moderate Republican who was McCain's campaign chairman in 2008--said that the fundamental driver in American politics today is that the average American worker has not had a wage increase in a generation and that is causing a crisis in faith of American capitalism to deliver the goods. I would add..that is why we are getting more extreme candidates.

Steve Schmidt pointed out that the bill does nothing to help the average workers and adds another 1.5 trillion in debt. Which I would add makes it even more difficult to do anything to help wages.


He did a great job helping McCain, didn’t he? He’s got his finger on the pulse!

It only adds $1.5T to the Debt in 10 years IF the economy is static. Democrats always like to picture the pie as fixed because it fits the class struggle narrative the Marxists believe in.
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 2894
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 01 Dec 2017, 10:27 am

There is a party. There is an announcement...

POLITICIANS: "Hey everyone! We've made more more pie!"
SHAREHOLDERS: "Love that pie! Can't get enough of pie!
CORPORATE EXECUTIVES: "Isn't America great? Keep getting more and more of the pie and not having to do anything for it!"
DONOR CLASS: "More pie to give to politicians so they can make more pie for us!"
AMERICAN WORKER: "Can I have some pie?
POLITICIANS: "Pie? Pie? What do you think this is: Communist Russia? You make more pie...you don't get to eat it. Oh...and we need money from you to help pay back the money that we are going to borrow to help create the pie you're not allowed to eat! Actually...are you sure you want the pie you already got? I'm still hungry..."
AMERICAN WORKER: "Get your hands off of my pie! Bernie!"
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 20825
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 01 Dec 2017, 12:23 pm

freeman3 wrote:There is a party. There is an announcement...

POLITICIANS: "Hey everyone! We've made more more pie!"
SHAREHOLDERS: "Love that pie! Can't get enough of pie!
CORPORATE EXECUTIVES: "Isn't America great? Keep getting more and more of the pie and not having to do anything for it!"
DONOR CLASS: "More pie to give to politicians so they can make more pie for us!"
AMERICAN WORKER: "Can I have some pie?
POLITICIANS: "Pie? Pie? What do you think this is: Communist Russia? You make more pie...you don't get to eat it. Oh...and we need money from you to help pay back the money that we are going to borrow to help create the pie you're not allowed to eat! Actually...are you sure you want the pie you already got? I'm still hungry..."
AMERICAN WORKER: "Get your hands off of my pie! Bernie!"


A very funny explanation of what is wrong with liberal thought.

"A rising tide lifts all yachts" is not credible, no matter how loudly or often it is repeated.
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 2894
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 01 Dec 2017, 1:07 pm

The Atlantic Ocean. The year is 1912. A conversation in a lifeboat...

Gentleman#1: "I thought they said the Titanic was unsinkable? This is really quite inconvenient--I am going to my miss my business meeting. Can you pass the cognac?"
Gentleman#2: "Yes, yes...quite the imposition. Can you hand over one of those Cubans?"
Gentleman#1: "Certainly. Shall we discuss economic policy while we are waiting for those tardy rescue boats? Really, I am going to make a complaint about all this when we get to New York..."
Gentleman#1: "Don't they realize we have important business to attend to. Thank God they thoughtfully only filled these boats half full so we could stretch our legs..."
Gentleman #2: "So...how do you like the new tax bill cutting taxes on gentlemen?"
Gentlemen#1: "Brilliant! Good for the working-class fellow as well. Hey for once we are mingling with the huddled masses...let's ask them?"
Gentlemen#2: "Yes, of course. Hey, you third-class passengers out there...do you mind answering a question?"
Man on piece of wood: "Sure, but be quick about it. I'm freezing to death!"
Gentleman#1: "Don't be negative about it, good Sir. The ocean is wonderfully bracing at this time of year!"
Man on piece of wood: "Not quite my view of it ...but what's your question?
Gentleman#1: "What say you about Her Majesty's new economic plan.? Would not not agree that it lifts all boats?"
Man on piece of wood: "Yes...if you own a boat. We was all wondering out here...if there was room in the boat for us commoners?"
Gentleman #1: "Oh sorry...the boat is all full up. No room..."
Man on piece of wood: "Well, that's too bad. We was hoping not to freeze to death out there. But we don't want to impose on those of gentle birth."
Gentleman#2: (whispering): "The nerve of the man...asking us to share a boat with those of lower class..."
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 20825
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 01 Dec 2017, 1:24 pm

Yes, yes, the answer is always, “Tax the rich, spend more on the poor.”

Sadly, there are always seem to be too few of the former and too many of the latter.

Even more calamitous, the government seems to be unable to remedy the plight of the latter at the expense of the former. Oh, what to do?

“Tax the rich, spend more on the poor.”

“That’s never worked.”

“And, that has not stopped us yet has it?”
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 2894
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 01 Dec 2017, 1:33 pm

It's not really the poor that's the issue. It's not the bottom 20%. It's the middle 60% that is getting screwed under current economic policy. The top 20% is doing ok, the top 5% even better, and top 1 or 2% is hitting the jackpot. Eventually that middle 60% is going to make its displeasure known.
User avatar
Statesman
 
Posts: 10837
Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

Post 02 Dec 2017, 10:35 am

Fate
Republicans need to be more blunt about it: government is great at one thing, namely spending your money in ways that you would never permit it to be spent if you had a say in the matter.


All governments, or just American governments? Or maybe particularly American governments?
Americans generally want things that their governments aren't delivering. Health care, free or at least cheap education, a healthy infrastructure, security. (Not just physical security.)
Instead you get subsidies on corn, oil production ... where ever the lobbyists have had the most effect on the tax code...

Fate
Sadly, there are always seem to be too few of the former and too many of the latter

well, there's only so much money to go around.
Since 1980 money that the working and middle classes had have been moved into the hands of the very rich...
The three richest people in the US – Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos and Warren Buffett – own as much wealth as the bottom half of the US population, or 160 million people.

http://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-s ... ottom-half

You may not like the word redistribution ...because you think it is only about moving money from the rich to the poor through taxes...
However the only redistribution in the US since 1980 has been into the hands of the rich. The latest Republican tax bill does more of this....
The US is supposed to be an economy driven by the middle class. However with increasing pressure on the middle class and working class, it doesn't bode well for the future. Especially the accelerated debt accumulation.....

Fate
“That’s never worked.”

Sure it has. In the US even. See growth from 1945 through 1980. See US debt reduction 1945 thru 1980. See US standard of living improvement 1945 thru 1980.
See social mobility in the US 1945 thru 1980.
Then look at countries that do tax more progressively and where they are today .... In terms of working poor and middle class prosperity, and happiness.

Republicans can't be blunt Fate. And haven't been honest about their priorities . Their priorities are the people funding their campaigns and hiring them after their government service has ended...
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 20825
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 02 Dec 2017, 11:16 am

freeman3 wrote:It's not really the poor that's the issue. It's not the bottom 20%. It's the middle 60% that is getting screwed under current economic policy. The top 20% is doing ok, the top 5% even better, and top 1 or 2% is hitting the jackpot. Eventually that middle 60% is going to make its displeasure known.


They did. That’s one reason Hillary lost.
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 20825
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 02 Dec 2017, 11:17 am

Rickyp, “Republicans can’t tell the truth because what the voters want is socialism.”

Sure.
User avatar
Statesman
 
Posts: 10837
Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

Post 02 Dec 2017, 2:23 pm

Fate
Rickyp, “Republicans can’t tell the truth because what the voters want is socialism.”
Sure

Using the slur of socialism again... The word that is supposed to end the discussion.
Until one gets to specific wants and needs.

Do you think Americans want Medicare to end?

A majority of Americans say it is the federal government’s responsibility to make sure all Americans have health care coverage. And a growing share now supports a “single payer” approach to health insurance, according to a new national survey by Pew Research Center.


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... democrats/

More than 60% of Americans are in favor of free college tuition. Most Americans favor free college
Tuition and fees at a four-year public university averaged $9,410 this past academic year. Now a majority of Americans want to cut that price down to zero.
Sixty-two percent of Americans said that they support making public college tuition free for anyone who wants to attend, according to a survey by Bankrate, which polled 1,000 people in late July. The overall margin of sampling error was plus or minus 4 percentage points.

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/01/over-60 ... -says.html

Fate, the more people are exposed to what others enjoy, the more they want those things too. Where once a lazy slur about "socialism" would have convinced the majority of Americans, as Americans learn how things are different elsewhere ....
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 20825
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 02 Dec 2017, 3:16 pm

rickyp wrote:Fate
Rickyp, “Republicans can’t tell the truth because what the voters want is socialism.”
Sure

Using the slur of socialism again... The word that is supposed to end the discussion.
Until one gets to specific wants and needs.

Do you think Americans want Medicare to end?


I think all Americans want VA benefits. You know, like the guy I served with who . . . has been in constant pain for two months, can't work, can't sleep, and can't see a doctor.

Yeah, we need more socialism.

A majority of Americans say it is the federal government’s responsibility to make sure all Americans have health care coverage. And a growing share now supports a “single payer” approach to health insurance, according to a new national survey by Pew Research Center.


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... democrats/


When we want your Marxism, we'll invade you and take it by force. Until then, just be happy we like you.

More than 60% of Americans are in favor of free college tuition. Most Americans favor free college
Tuition and fees at a four-year public university averaged $9,410 this past academic year. Now a majority of Americans want to cut that price down to zero.


This just reflects what is commonly known as "Canada Syndrome," the mistaken notion that anything is "free" just because "the government" pays for it.

Sixty-two percent of Americans said that they support making public college tuition free for anyone who wants to attend, according to a survey by Bankrate, which polled 1,000 people in late July. The overall margin of sampling error was plus or minus 4 percentage points.

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/01/over-60 ... -says.html

Fate, the more people are exposed to what others enjoy, the more they want those things too. Where once a lazy slur about "socialism" would have convinced the majority of Americans, as Americans learn how things are different elsewhere ....


It's not a lazy slur. It's the truth. It's class envy, laziness, and the failure of our education system to teach the truth: there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Farewell Comrade!
User avatar
Statesman
 
Posts: 10837
Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

Post 03 Dec 2017, 2:34 pm

Congress’s own think tanks — the Joint Committee on Taxation and the Congressional Budget Office — calculate that in 10 years, people making between $50,000 and $75,000 (around the median income in the United States) would effectively pay a whopping $4 billion more in taxes, while people making $1 million or more would pay $5.8 billion less under the Senate bill. And that doesn’t take into account the massive cuts in services, health care and other benefits that would likely result


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... e030489946

This tax bill is all about income redistribution. From the working poor and middle class to the very rich.
And its financed on the backs of future generations who will be saddled with the debt.
Where is the tea party today?
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 20825
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 03 Dec 2017, 3:18 pm

rickyp wrote:
Congress’s own think tanks — the Joint Committee on Taxation and the Congressional Budget Office — calculate that in 10 years, people making between $50,000 and $75,000 (around the median income in the United States) would effectively pay a whopping $4 billion more in taxes, while people making $1 million or more would pay $5.8 billion less under the Senate bill. And that doesn’t take into account the massive cuts in services, health care and other benefits that would likely result


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... e030489946

This tax bill is all about income redistribution. From the working poor and middle class to the very rich.
And its financed on the backs of future generations who will be saddled with the debt.
Where is the tea party today?


How much do “the working poor” pay in income taxes now? Go ahead. Tell us.