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Post 27 Sep 2017, 7:08 pm

You have no idea how wrong you are.

Maybe lots of Canadians hate their country, but that’s not the standard in the US.
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Post 28 Sep 2017, 9:30 am

bbauska wrote:To answer Owen's comment about foreign enemies...

England was a foreign enemy. (US War for Independence, War of 1812)

Players stood for the anthem of a foreign nation that was once an enemy. They then kneel on foreign soil. Considering your comment on the CSA implications, do you feel the same way about "God Save the Queen"?
Frankly, I don't feel any problem if people don't want to stand for the UK national anthem. It was played at the London NFL games, as guests.

Of course, the key difference between that and CSA emblems is that people are not flying the Union Flag on state buildings, or invoking a pride in it as Americans.

But my point was that if you are not angered by people flying the Battle Flag, or indeed, standing for a foreign anthem, why for kneeling in this case?

I note no comments on the other items I mentioned. They are explicitly barred under the US Flag code, whereas kneeling is not (you "should" stand, but it is not a case of "must" or "must not".
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Post 28 Sep 2017, 10:28 am

I was just in Belfast 3 weeks ago for work. I seem to recall seeing the Union Jack flying high from various government buildings.

In light of the history of the Irish in Northern Ireland, specifically the Catholics of Northern Ireland, I can appreciate the fact that not everyone can go along with a national anthem or a flag. I wouldn't want to stand for God Save the Queen at a sports event if I were of Northern Irish Catholic stock. That wouldn't jive with my experience.

Like I stated at the outset of the thread, this is a battle for control of the narrative of symbols.

That narrative will always be a reflection of one's lived experience no matter where you fall on the spectrum of opinions.

Are Americans right to feel insulted by those taking a knee? Absolutely and then some. Trump is justified to be pissed off at the NFL players and managers. It really is a true insult to many.

Are others right to take a knee since they can no longer buy in to the notion of a unified country where all share in equal treatment under the law? What does "the land of the free" really mean? How do individuals interpret "home of the brave" given their lived experience?

The controversy is, at its core, a question of hermeneutics.
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Post 28 Sep 2017, 11:55 am

Dag, I was referring to the flying of flags in the USA, where Confederate flags have been flown from public buildings, despite them being the former enemy. I doubt there are many Union Flags flying from public buildings in the US, other than for specific reasons.

In the UK, which includes Northern Ireland, we do have our national flag on public buildings. Indeed, it became a political issue in that part of the country when there were proposals to tone down the display there, and the reaction has led to flag mania.

But we seldom would fly a foreign flag, other than for a specific reason. Such as visiting dignitaries or to mark town twinning etc.
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Post 28 Sep 2017, 3:03 pm

dag
The controversy is, at its core, a question of hermeneutics


The Trump controversy... maybe. Entirely about symbols.... and symbolic gestures. Certainly nothign substantive...

The issue of the protest .... No. Kappernick wasn't taking a knee over something being done to black men symbolically. The injustice he is protesting is very real.

The question will be whether the Trumpian controversy has sufficiently clouded and confused the issue that the purpose of the protest is lost....
Or whether the protest grows both in participation and in public acceptance.
I have a feeling that it gets bigger... and that the actual issues being protest will continue to gain prominence.
But thats only based on how other similar issues have progressed.
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Post 28 Sep 2017, 5:51 pm

Danivon

What do you mean by Union Flags exactly? As in the North who fought against the South during the Civil War? If so, that would be our current flag minus a few stars. That flag flies everywhere, especially on civic buildings.

I'm missing your point but no matter, it led me to contemplate the Union Jack being flown in Northern Ireland and how that symbol is perceived by Catholics who live there.

Rickyp

Just as Danivon's point got passed me, you're definitely not following mine.

The flag is a symbol.

Over the top and unnecessary violence on the part of some white police toward some blacks is very real. Because that experience is real, the flag as a symbol has alternative meanings for some blacks that goes well beyond Trump's interpretation of the symbol.
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Post 29 Sep 2017, 11:56 am

Is the protest helping the NFL?

(September 29, 2017) - In the wake of the ongoing controversy between the NFL and President Trump, new Morning Consult brand tracking data shows that the NFL's reputation among Americans is starting to decline, especially among Trump voters.
Morning Consult conducts daily brand tracking on nearly 1000 companies and products by surveying 5000 adults in the U.S. every day. Results shown below reflect a seven day moving average and have a margin of error of +/- 3%. More details on methodology are available below.


http://view.e.morningconsult.com/?qs=1f ... b351a02146
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Post 29 Sep 2017, 12:18 pm

dag hammarsjkold wrote:Danivon

What do you mean by Union Flags exactly? As in the North who fought against the South during the Civil War? If so, that would be our current flag minus a few stars. That flag flies everywhere, especially on civic buildings.
I mean the Union Flag as in the flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, that some people call the Union Jack (which is only correct if it is flying from a ship).

Union Flag = :eng1: = Union Jack

I was talking about the current day, not the period of the Civil War.

I'm missing your point but no matter, it led me to contemplate the Union Jack being flown in Northern Ireland and how that symbol is perceived by Catholics who live there.
By Irish Nationalists and Republicans (who tend to be Catholic or from a Catholic background), it is perceived poorly. Personally I think it is overused over there, and deliberately so to pander to the Unionists.
Last edited by danivon on 30 Sep 2017, 1:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post 29 Sep 2017, 5:26 pm

Now I follow. Thanks for clarifying.
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Post 09 Oct 2017, 1:56 pm

I don’t know. However, it is in the league rules that players MUST stand for the anthem.


It's been a while since I've posted here so apologies for dragging up something that was posted weeks ago. I think I probably ought to point out though that this is a classic example of 'fake news'. It was widely circulated on the internet a few weeks back when the protests were hogging the headlines but is in fact wholly fictitious. No such rule exists.

But honestly, who cares if it does exist ? The 1st Amendment guarantees a right to free speech, and if a corporation funding political campaigns is 'speech' then I fail to see how an athlete taking a knee doesn't fall into the same category. Granted, not even Trump has tried to claim that the NFL protesters have been breaking the law, but the point is that they're engaging in an activity which is fully in keeping with the spirit of what the Constitution exists to protect. In doing so they're actually honouring America, because the great thing about America is not its symbols, it's the vibrant democratic spirit of its people.

Besides which, they've all made it quite clear from the outset that this is not about disrespecting the military or anybody who has served in it. Exactly how many times must they make this point before it will be taken seriously ? The whole thing seems like phony and concocted outrage to me.
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Post 09 Oct 2017, 3:46 pm

Sassenach wrote:
I don’t know. However, it is in the league rules that players MUST stand for the anthem.


It's been a while since I've posted here so apologies for dragging up something that was posted weeks ago. I think I probably ought to point out though that this is a classic example of 'fake news'. It was widely circulated on the internet a few weeks back when the protests were hogging the headlines but is in fact wholly fictitious. No such rule exists.

But honestly, who cares if it does exist ? The 1st Amendment guarantees a right to free speech, and if a corporation funding political campaigns is 'speech' then I fail to see how an athlete taking a knee doesn't fall into the same category. Granted, not even Trump has tried to claim that the NFL protesters have been breaking the law, but the point is that they're engaging in an activity which is fully in keeping with the spirit of what the Constitution exists to protect. In doing so they're actually honouring America, because the great thing about America is not its symbols, it's the vibrant democratic spirit of its people.

Besides which, they've all made it quite clear from the outset that this is not about disrespecting the military or anybody who has served in it. Exactly how many times must they make this point before it will be taken seriously ? The whole thing seems like phony and concocted outrage to me.


Yup, I think it’s great.

You think it’s phony outrage?

It’s hitting them right in the ratings. If this continues, watch what happens.
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Post 14 Oct 2017, 11:12 am

I do think it is fake outrage for a large part.

When Kaepernick first decided not to stand for the anthem (in the 2016 pre-season games), he sat on the bench. And then a veteran contacted him, and they met up, and he was advised that kneeling was more respectful, as it is what you do often when remembering a lost comrade, and it is a sign of submission. So he changed it. Quite deliberately he changed it to be respectful to the military, when all along the protest was about something else anyway.

And there was a fuss last year, but not as much as this year when the President waded in and tried to make out that it was a protest against him (it wasn't), as well as being against the military. And so the "right" had to pile on, because US politics is a team sport with fans more loyal than in any other sport. So you had the spectacle of Pence travelling hundreds of miles to attend a game and then walk out in protest of the protest, and fly back to LA (all on tax dollars), to make a big gesture about respecting the military.
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Post 14 Oct 2017, 12:03 pm

danivon wrote:I do think it is fake outrage for a large part.

When Kaepernick first decided not to stand for the anthem (in the 2016 pre-season games), he sat on the bench. And then a veteran contacted him, and they met up, and he was advised that kneeling was more respectful, as it is what you do often when remembering a lost comrade, and it is a sign of submission. So he changed it. Quite deliberately he changed it to be respectful to the military, when all along the protest was about something else anyway.

And there was a fuss last year, but not as much as this year when the President waded in and tried to make out that it was a protest against him (it wasn't), as well as being against the military. And so the "right" had to pile on, because US politics is a team sport with fans more loyal than in any other sport. So you had the spectacle of Pence travelling hundreds of miles to attend a game and then walk out in protest of the protest, and fly back to LA (all on tax dollars), to make a big gesture about respecting the military.

Talk about faux outrage: when Democrats complain about money being wasted, sorry, but that’s funny (and, yes, I know you’re not a Democrat, but they did complain).

But, regards the national anthem: the athletes may do as they please. It’s damaging the NFL. If the goal was to harm the business so that the owners would cut salaries, they are on their way to success. The audience for the NFL is largely male and predominately “red.” The blue State elites are not nearly as passionate about football. So, keep protesting! Decide how many times you’d like to shoot yourself in the foot!

That’s the point: when your fan base hates your protest, they don’t care what your message is. This is the Dixie Chicks redux.
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Post 16 Oct 2017, 2:44 pm

As I understand it, while ratings took a hit at the start of the season, they are recovering.

It may also be a bit of an assumption that NFL fans are quite so "red". It's not NASCAR.
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Post 16 Oct 2017, 3:46 pm

danivon wrote:As I understand it, while ratings took a hit at the start of the season, they are recovering.

It may also be a bit of an assumption that NFL fans are quite so "red". It's not NASCAR.


No, it’s not NASCAR, but this is more a working-class sport than it is a Wall Street sport.

I’d be interested in seeing the demographics.