Join In On The Action "Register Here" To View The Forums

Already a Member Login Here

Board index Forum Index
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 2764
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 27 Sep 2017, 8:59 am

Trump is the Great Divider. He became involved in the Birther Movement to become a spokesman for a certain part of the Republican base that was resentful of immigrants and other racial groups. His very speech as a candidate was an extremely xenophobic speech designed to appeal to that part of the Republican base. He realized that the excitement from that part of the base could get him the nomination over tepid alternatives. From there...who knows what could happen.

Every so often he throws throw red meat to that base to keep them happy. These comments about black athletes disrespecting the anthem are another example. But that base is only about 30%. The question in 2020 whether more Republican moderate voters will decide to not vote the party Republican line and reject Trump's divisiveness.

Anyway, I see nothing wrong with black athletes deciding they are not going to stand when they feel the Nation is not living to its ideals and they believe black lives are not being considered of equal value in our society, as evidenced by all the police shootings of black people. People are free to dislike them for it. At the very least it calls attention to the issue. And if a person thinks the country is doing something fundamentally wrong...refusing to mindlessly salute its symbols is a time-honored way of protest.

Why is the national anthem played in public settings? Obviously, it is a way to instill patriotism and love of country. The flag and national anthem are symbols of what our country represents, that it is a democracy, that we fought two world wars and helped to defeat Communism. They represent everything that our country has done and what it is now.There is a lot of good there..but it ain't all good. And while extreme not honoring the nation's symbols is a dramatic way of a person showing that they will not fully salute the nation's symbols when there is something deeply troubling going on.
User avatar
Administrator
 
Posts: 6593
Joined: 26 Jun 2000, 1:13 pm

Post 27 Sep 2017, 9:56 am

Freeman, you are right. People can have and display views w/o government persecution. There is repercussions of your views, and that is what happened at Google.

I for one would bench EVERY player for one game on my team if I owned that team. It would be w/o pay for actions detrimental to the team.

Seems a lot like the Google firing to me.

Would it be OK if a player was fired or suspended for his views, like the Google firing?
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 2764
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 27 Sep 2017, 10:14 am

And fans would have a right to boycott the NFL in response...
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 2764
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 27 Sep 2017, 10:22 am

You have freedom of speech...but only against the government. Economic and social pressures exist that can curtail your exercise of freedom of speech. That's the reality.
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 20590
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 27 Sep 2017, 10:47 am

freeman3 wrote:Trump is the Great Divider. He became involved in the Birther Movement to become a spokesman for a certain part of the Republican base that was resentful of immigrants and other racial groups. His very speech as a candidate was an extremely xenophobic speech designed to appeal to that part of the Republican base. He realized that the excitement from that part of the base could get him the nomination over tepid alternatives. From there...who knows what could happen.


Meh. This whole protest movement started on Obama's watch. Did Trump throw kerosene on it? You betcha.

However, how about Obama, the Great Uniter?

"The Cambridge Police acted stupidly."

Of course, he was wrong.

"If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon."

As if that had anything to do with it. The "suspect" was not white, was not a police officer, but that didn't stop Obama from throwing kerosene on it.

He said nothing helpful re Ferguson.

His comments at the Dallas officers' funeral, were these appropriate?

And so when African Americans from all walks of life, from different communities across the country, voice a growing despair over what they perceive to be unequal treatment; when study after study shows that whites and people of color experience the criminal justice system differently, so that if you’re black you’re more likely to be pulled over or searched or arrested, more likely to get longer sentences, more likely to get the death penalty for the same crime; when mothers and fathers raise their kids right and have “the talk” about how to respond if stopped by a police officer -- “yes, sir,” “no, sir” -- but still fear that something terrible may happen when their child walks out the door, still fear that kids being stupid and not quite doing things right might end in tragedy -- when all this takes place more than 50 years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act, we cannot simply turn away and dismiss those in peaceful protest as troublemakers or paranoid. (Applause.) We can’t simply dismiss it as a symptom of political correctness or reverse racism. To have your experience denied like that, dismissed by those in authority, dismissed perhaps even by your white friends and coworkers and fellow church members again and again and again -- it hurts. Surely we can see that, all of us.


I would say "No." If he wanted to make a broader speech about race, the funeral service was not the place to do it.

Every so often he throws throw red meat to that base to keep them happy. These comments about black athletes disrespecting the anthem are another example. But that base is only about 30%. The question in 2020 whether more Republican moderate voters will decide to not vote the party Republican line and reject Trump's divisiveness.


Nope.

He's not a conservative.

Furthermore, this issue is a 30% issue: 30% (at best) support your position. Most people think this is not the right way to protest.

Anyway, I see nothing wrong with black athletes deciding they are not going to stand when they feel the Nation is not living to its ideals and they believe black lives are not being considered of equal value in our society, as evidenced by all the police shootings of black people. People are free to dislike them for it. At the very least it calls attention to the issue. And if a person thinks the country is doing something fundamentally wrong...refusing to mindlessly salute its symbols is a time-honored way of protest.


Sorry, but "all the police shootings of black people" is a deeply red herring.

Why is the national anthem played in public settings? Obviously, it is a way to instill patriotism and love of country. The flag and national anthem are symbols of what our country represents, that it is a democracy, that we fought two world wars and helped to defeat Communism. They represent everything that our country has done and what it is now.There is a lot of good there..but it ain't all good. And while extreme not honoring the nation's symbols is a dramatic way of a person showing that they will not fully salute the nation's symbols when there is something deeply troubling going on.


Then win arguments based on facts, not mindlessly taking a knee while symbolically giving the finger to those who have served and sacrificed.
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 2764
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 27 Sep 2017, 12:01 pm

I don't think their protest is intended to be a middle finger to those who have served. Of course, it should be remembered that there were black soldiers who fought and died in the Civil War, WWI, WWII, and the Korean War--at times when they were clearly not treated as equals.

Part of being a citizen in a democracy is that you are not just subject to some alien government over you and you obey what the government tells you what to do. Part of being a citizen is that you will (or support) the institutions that make up the country. That is what is so concerning about all the money in politics and why people are so alienated from the process. A person's individual vote is virtually worthless unless they can find a person or group that can speak for them. This is a significant part of why Trump won--he speaks for an alienated group of white voters.

Anyway...basically each one of us affirms that our country's institutions as a whole best enable us to freely live our lives and develop our abilities in conjunction with others doing the same. This is not nationalism like in a totalitarian country where we have to do so or are brainwashed into doing so. We freely and continually support our institutions. Each one of us.

Obviously, none likes everything that goes on. But in the main we support the institutions that make up the country.

And so I think that when a black athlete thinks there is something deeply going wrong in our country...then it may be so appropriate for them to say wait a minute they don't completely support our country's institutions as presently comprised because those institutions are devaluing black lives and protest by not standing at the national anthem or clenching a fist in the Olympics. Those acts are not going to make happy those who have deeply held beliefs in our institutions... but does anyone doubt that the beliefs of the athletes protesting are deeply held as well?
User avatar
Administrator
 
Posts: 6593
Joined: 26 Jun 2000, 1:13 pm

Post 27 Sep 2017, 12:22 pm

I think the fact that they are using their jobs to display their opinion is a problem, as it offends some people (myself being one of them!). It is a political statement they are giving. Much like a baker who offends because they choose to not do an aspect of their job, the government then steps in. This is a similar case. The players choose to give a political statement that offends. They are using an aspect of a job to offend. To me it is the same.

The only difference is that I am not suing the NFL or the players union for my being offended.
User avatar
Administrator
 
Posts: 6593
Joined: 26 Jun 2000, 1:13 pm

Post 27 Sep 2017, 12:25 pm

To answer Owen's comment about foreign enemies...

England was a foreign enemy. (US War for Independence, War of 1812)

Players stood for the anthem of a foreign nation that was once an enemy. They then kneel on foreign soil. Considering your comment on the CSA implications, do you feel the same way about "God Save the Queen"?
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 20590
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 27 Sep 2017, 12:31 pm

freeman3 wrote:I don't think their protest is intended to be a middle finger to those who have served. Of course, it should be remembered that there were black soldiers who fought and died in the Civil War, WWI, WWII, and the Korean War--at times when they were clearly not treated as equals.


I don't think the football players get to decide how their message is received.

It reminds me of those videos where the guy is on his knee asking the girl to get married and she tells him "No." He thought the baseball game was the perfect setting!

It really doesn't matter. Something was not communicated. The message intended was not the message received.

And, I think the "take a knee" is akin to hashtag diplomacy, i.e. "bring back our girls." It's lazy. It requires no thought or work.

And so I think that when a black athlete thinks there is something deeply going wrong in our country...then it may be so appropriate for them to say wait a minute they don't completely support our country's institutions as presently comprised because those institutions are devaluing black lives and protest by not standing at the national anthem or clenching a fist in the Olympics. Those acts are not going to make happy those who have deeply held beliefs in our institutions... but does anyone doubt that the beliefs of the athletes protesting are deeply held as well?


Hey, they can do whatever they want!

And, America can respond as it wants. We are not obligated to honor all opinions as if they are true.
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 2764
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 27 Sep 2017, 12:40 pm

Instead of everyone getting offended...why not make America Better? We have problems; fix them. There is no greatness in pointing fingers at different group of people like Trump continually does. Banning the people from entire nations from coming here is not going to make us great. Building a wall is not going to make great. It sure as heck ain't going to make us great if we let white supremacists come out of the shadows. Pitting non-citizens against citizens and racial groups against each other is not going to make us great.

Fostering the ability of our people to reach their fullest potential is the way to keep us great. Attracting the best and brightest from all over the world is a way to keep America great.

We are a becoming a petty and small-minded country if we think keeping Mexicans and Muslims out
is the key to greatness.
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 4628
Joined: 08 Jun 2000, 10:26 am

Post 27 Sep 2017, 1:26 pm

I personally stand with the flag and anthem as a sign of respect, but I think the symbolism of being on one knee is very good. These players are consciously not sitting. In junior sports we instruct the kids to take a knee when someone is injured as a sign of respect. It also helps the kids understand that we want them to play safe.

Marines take a knee when a fellow soldier loses his life. The visual approximates a flag at half mast. This is right. In some ways our flag should be at half mast.

My sense is that a solid majority of Americans have the following perspective: we are a great country, but we have our share of problems and we need to do better, together. For that reason I also liked seeing the players are-in-arm. This is good protest: no violence, no flag burning, no disrespectful shouting.
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 2764
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 27 Sep 2017, 1:47 pm

Hear, hear!
User avatar
Administrator
 
Posts: 6593
Joined: 26 Jun 2000, 1:13 pm

Post 27 Sep 2017, 3:09 pm

freeman3 wrote:Instead of everyone getting offended...why not make America Better? We have problems; fix them. There is no greatness in pointing fingers at different group of people like Trump continually does. Banning the people from entire nations from coming here is not going to make us great. Building a wall is not going to make great. It sure as heck ain't going to make us great if we let white supremacists come out of the shadows. Pitting non-citizens against citizens and racial groups against each other is not going to make us great.

Fostering the ability of our people to reach their fullest potential is the way to keep us great. Attracting the best and brightest from all over the world is a way to keep America great.

We are a becoming a petty and small-minded country if we think keeping Mexicans and Muslims out
is the key to greatness.


Great! Where was this attitude earlier with gay marriage, Hobby Lobby, Google firing, College safe areas, Confederate statues, and a myriad of other issues?

It seems to me that the offended are the ones on the left, and this is quite amusing that conservatives are being told to not get offended. Puh-leeze!
User avatar
Statesman
 
Posts: 10744
Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

Post 27 Sep 2017, 5:33 pm

bbauska
I think the fact that they are using their jobs to display their opinion is a problem, as it offends some people (myself being one of them!). It is a political statement they are giving. Much like a baker who offends because they choose to not do an aspect of their job, the government then steps in. This is a similar case. The players choose to give a political statement that offends. They are using an aspect of a job to offend. To me it is the same.
The only difference is that I am not suing the NFL or the players union for my being offended


The action of taking a knee during the anthem does not affect their ability to carry out their job.
If their non-violent protest during the anthem so offends you that you can no longer enjoy watching their exertions on the football field after.... I guess you should stay home or turn off the tv.

You all probably aren't aware of where the protest of kneeling during the anthem started as a protest against unequal treatment under law...
It wasn't Kappernick or the NFL. It was the WNBA.
Now, those ladies aren't millionaires. They make on average $72K a year.
https://www.sbnation.com/2017/9/24/1635 ... nald-trump

bbauska
I for one would bench EVERY player for one game on my team if I owned that team. It would be w/o pay for actions detrimental to the team.

two things would happen.
1. You'd end up without a team on the field as the players would unite and support the players right to express their views.
2. You'd end up in court trying to defend a suit that would require you to explain how demonstrating for social justice was detrimental to your team.

The WNBA could not silence their athletes... I suspect that the NFL knows they can't silence theirs at this point either. What has happened is that some who were only sympathetic to the protests are now aroused...
User avatar
Statesman
 
Posts: 10744
Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

Post 27 Sep 2017, 5:47 pm

fate
When the anthem and flag are protested the message is, "We hate this country."

Actually, you've truncated the message. The full message is ...
"We hate this country the way it is..... Things need to change..."

Eventually the notion that the ideals supposedly represented in the symbols of the nation aren't being lived up to ... will be communicated. You can slow social progress .... You can stop it for awhile...
But eventually ...


Fate
The polls don't lie.

No. Well the scientifically sound polls don't. And isn't it strange to hear this from you?
You are right that the kneeling protests aren't well supported yet. Neither were the Freedom Riders at the beginning. . Nor was Kings March... Nor was King. Nor was gay marriage ....etc.
You gotta start somewhere.. and then persevere.
Where people are exposed to a full debate on the issue and learn what the facts are ... eventually people will be persuaded to take action to ensure that laws are enforced equally, that the justice system is made to function with equality, and that prisons are reformed..
And, in the meantime, every Sunday millions of Americans will still watch primarily black athletes maim and concuss each other for 3 hours. And because they don't want to disrupt the gold factory and many actually support their players cause ... Their owners will support their continued and increasing efforts at rising awareness of the social justice issues affecting them .
This is getting bigger. Not going away.