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Post 26 Jun 2017, 8:09 am

It's coming to a Supreme Court near you...

Is it ok to say nay to make a wedding cake for a couple of gays because God said that it isn't the...right way?

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/ ... hristian-/
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Post 26 Jun 2017, 8:44 am

Having been up and down this before, Yes it is.

Perhaps the customer would like to have a cake made by someone who really doesn't care how it looks. To me that makes zero sense. Would I want a cake made for an baptism cake made by someone who disdains the worship of a Christian God? They do not need to believe in God, but if the provider was possibly not going to do a good job because of the feelings they had about a situation, then I would look elsewhere.

Also, if they said they didn't want to do it, who am I to mandate that they must.
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Post 26 Jun 2017, 9:24 am

Yeah we debated this before but in sum I think it's send a humiliating message to a gay couple that they are not equal members of the community when a bakery refuses to make a cake for them. If a person's religious beliefs that are strong that it inhibits their ability to work or own a public business...then either they need to get a little less strict on following their beliefs of they need to get a job where their religious beliefs do not come into play. When people come into public spaces they deserve to be treated just like everyone else. It's an important part of a person feeling that they are an equal member of the community.
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Post 26 Jun 2017, 11:45 am

We look at it differently, that is for sure. I see that the baker is not allowed to refuse a job.

You did not address the opposite view. Would you want to have a cake made by someone who is not interested in doing a good job? I would not.

A wedding cake is not an emergency service. Find someone who will gladly do the cake.

Let the market decide if the choices this baker makes are so neolithic that they cannot stand. After all, the changes in society's acceptance is being touted would make you think that this would not be a problem. Is it really that difficult to find a baker in Lakewood that does what the couple wants in a cake? I would venture a guess not. As a matter of fact, I found two with a couple minutes of Google search.

http://gaycolorado.com/denver/wedding/

Why the agenda to make this person serve against their will when not an emergency, and there are other vendors capable of serving?
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Post 26 Jun 2017, 12:06 pm

The market is not the mechanism for deciding issues of equality (or any other rights)What if some people liked the fact the Christian baker discriminated and they got more business out of being discriminatory towards gays? The market is value neutral; it thus cannot be allowed to decide the issue because (1) it could favor inequality, at least in some instances, and (2) even if it favored businesses that did not discriminate that would not cure the harm to those who were sent the message that they were not equal members of the community.

And it's not whether a person would feel more comfortable buying a cake from those who want to make a cake as opposed to those who don't want to. Of course, the former. But once they choose...it is humialiating for a business to refuse to bake a wedding cake because they are gay. The damage is done and they are seeking a legal remedy for it. And a business that advertised it won't make wedding cakes for gays is also doing harm.

The agenda is equality. Emergency or not everyone should be able to purchase a product without someone saying "we don't sell to your kind."
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Post 28 Jun 2017, 11:19 am

freeman3 wrote:The market is not the mechanism for deciding issues of equality (or any other rights)What if some people liked the fact the Christian baker discriminated and they got more business out of being discriminatory towards gays? The market is value neutral; it thus cannot be allowed to decide the issue because (1) it could favor inequality, at least in some instances, and (2) even if it favored businesses that did not discriminate that would not cure the harm to those who were sent the message that they were not equal members of the community.

And it's not whether a person would feel more comfortable buying a cake from those who want to make a cake as opposed to those who don't want to. Of course, the former. But once they choose...it is humialiating for a business to refuse to bake a wedding cake because they are gay. The damage is done and they are seeking a legal remedy for it. And a business that advertised it won't make wedding cakes for gays is also doing harm.

The agenda is equality. Emergency or not everyone should be able to purchase a product without someone saying "we don't sell to your kind."



Again, you mischaracterize the situation. It isn't "we don't sell to your kind," but "we won't sell a cake with a message that contradicts our belief."

Should gay bakers be forced to make a cake that reads, "Marriage is only legitimate between one man and one woman?"

Should a Muslim baker be forced to make a cake that says, "Jesus is the only way to heaven?"

Should a black baker be forced to make a cake that says, "Congratulations on being chosen Grand Wizard of the KKK!"

The reason the Christians will win is this: they did not refuse to sell to a customer. They refused to make a cake bearing a message they found morally objectionable. There's a huge difference.
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Post 28 Jun 2017, 12:30 pm

Messages are different. I think a business owner can decline to be forced to convey messages that are contrary to their beliefs. You are not discriminating against a cognizable group when you refuse to put to be involved in an message that they want on a cake. If a Christian baker was willing to make a wedding cake but was unwilling to put a pro-gay message on it...I am ok with that. The key here is not discriminating with regard to a product put out to the public. I don't think particularized messages are a necessary part of the product. Or perhaps when you add a message you change the nature of the product so that wedding cakes with a different message are each different products so that you can decide for each individual product whether you want to sell it or not. In other words, I could have a bakery and sell danishes, donuts, bagels,etc. each is a different product. But I could refuse to sell cakes to everyone. I think when you add a message you change the nature of the product and a baker could refuse to sell it because then it is a different product than what they agreed to sell to the public. I also think that religious views of the baker would have a greater chance of being favorably compared to alleged discrimination when it pertains to a message in the product and not the product itself. Here, the product is a wedding cake. If you sell wedding cakes to the public then you can't discriminate.

I think it is clear that the Christian baker discriminated. The only question is balancing the rights of religious freedom vs equality. I think equality is more important, because religious beliefs are particular and people cannot demand that others be treated unequally in the public square due to religious belief. You can believe what you want...but when you enter the public space you need to treat others equally.
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Post 28 Jun 2017, 1:30 pm

freeman3 wrote:Messages are different. I think a business owner can decline to be forced to convey messages that are contrary to their beliefs. You are not discriminating against a cognizable group when you refuse to put to be involved in an message that they want on a cake. If a Christian baker was willing to make a wedding cake but was unwilling to put a pro-gay message on it...I am ok with that. The key here is not discriminating with regard to a product put out to the public. I don't think particularized messages are a necessary part of the product. Or perhaps when you add a message you change the nature of the product so that wedding cakes with a different message are each different products so that you can decide for each individual product whether you want to sell it or not. In other words, I could have a bakery and sell danishes, donuts, bagels,etc. each is a different product. But I could refuse to sell cakes to everyone. I think when you add a message you change the nature of the product and a baker could refuse to sell it because then it is a different product than what they agreed to sell to the public. I also think that religious views of the baker would have a greater chance of being favorably compared to alleged discrimination when it pertains to a message in the product and not the product itself. Here, the product is a wedding cake. If you sell wedding cakes to the public then you can't discriminate.

I think it is clear that the Christian baker discriminated. The only question is balancing the rights of religious freedom vs equality. I think equality is more important, because religious beliefs are particular and people cannot demand that others be treated unequally in the public square due to religious belief. You can believe what you want...but when you enter the public space you need to treat others equally.


How is it clear that the Christian baker discriminated?

From your link:

“These are custom-designed artistic projects that express a vision,” said Nicolle Martin, an attorney allied with Alliance Defending Freedom. “Artistic expression has always enjoyed broad protection under the Constitution.”

But Louise Melling, deputy legal director for the American Civil Liberties Union, which is representing the same-sex couple, David Mullins and Charlie Craig, who initiated the complaint against the baker, says the First Amendment doesn’t provide a license to discriminate.

“It’s a question of whether David and Charlie … and others throughout the country are going to be protected from discrimination,” said Ms. Melling. “They were turned away because of who they are — a same-sex couple.”


Apparently, SOME kind of artistic expression was required--one the Christian felt was morally beyond the pale for him. So, again, how is it discrimination?

Would he be permitted to not design a wedding cake for a 40 year-old and a 14 year-old who were getting married? How about a brother and a sister? A woman and a building (don't challenge me on that one--it's real)? A polygamous marriage?

PS: how would you design a wedding cake for a homosexual couple without indicating it was a marriage between two people of the same sex?
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Post 28 Jun 2017, 1:43 pm

More: http://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/26/us ... cake-case/
“I’ll sell anyone any cake I’ve got,” he wrote. “But I won’t design a cake that promotes something that conflicts with the Bible’s teachings. And that rule applies to far more than cakes celebrating same-sex marriages. I also won’t use my talents to celebrate Halloween, anti-American or anti-family themes, atheism, racism, or indecency.”

A lawyer for Phillips on Monday compared his case to one involving another Denver-area business, Azucar Bakery, that in 2014 refused to bake cakes with anti-gay messages and imagery, actions that the Colorado Civil Rights Division later ruled as not discriminatory.

“The government in Colorado is picking and choosing which messages they’ll support and which artistic messages they’ll protect,” said Kristen Waggoner of the Alliance Defending Freedom, which took the baker’s case.


And more: http://thehill.com/regulation/court-bat ... dding-cake
Phillips claims that requiring him to provide the wedding cake violates his constitutional rights to freedom of speech and the free exercise of religion.

Craig and Mullins claim Phillips discriminated against them based on their sexual orientation by refusing to make the cake they requested in 2012, in violation of the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act (CADA).
But Phillips said he would bake and sell Craig and Mullins any other baked good, according to court documents. Phillips claimed that decorating cakes is a form of art, that he can honor God through his artistic talents and that he would displease God by creating cakes for same-sex marriages.

Phillips claimed he did not violate CADA because his refusal to serve Craig and Mullins was not because of their sexual orientation.


And even more: http://www.coloradoindependent.com/1660 ... reme-court

In their opening brief to the U.S. Supreme Court, the lawyers wrote that “it is undisputed” that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission does not apply state law to ban an African-American cake artist from “refusing to create a cake promoting white-supremacism for the Aryan Nation,” “an Islamic cake artist from refusing to create a cake denigrating the Quran for the Westboro Baptist Church,” and “three secular cake artists from refusing to create cakes opposing same-sex marriage for a Christian patron.” Therefore, they argued, the state law should not prohibit their client’s “polite declining to create a cake celebrating same-sex marriage on religious grounds when he is happy to create other items for gay and lesbian clients.”
The cake maker and shop owner is an artist, the lawyers wrote, and his faith “compels him to use his artistic talents to promote only messages that align with his religious beliefs.” And he even loses money by doing so, they wrote. But the state has ordered him to create cakes “celebrating same-sex wedding ceremonies,” with which he disagrees.
So the U.S. Supreme Court, they wrote, needs to rule in this case “to alleviate the stark choice Colorado offers those who, like Phillips, earn a living through artistic means: either use your talents to create expression that conflicts with your religious beliefs about marriage, or suffer punishment under Colorado’s public accommodation law.”
“A victory for Jack’s freedom to create the art he chooses and his freedom from coercive mandates that force citizens to speak as the state commands or face severe punishment is a victory for everyone, whether you agree with Jack’s views or not,” says Greg Scott, a spokesman for Phillips’ attorneys.


Now, let's go back to what you wrote:

freeman3 wrote:Messages are different. I think a business owner can decline to be forced to convey messages that are contrary to their beliefs. You are not discriminating against a cognizable group when you refuse to put to be involved in an message that they want on a cake


So, you appear to agree with the baker's lawyers.
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Post 28 Jun 2017, 3:09 pm

NIce try, bakery lawyers. A lawyer always has to come up with something. The baker says he won't sell a cake that "promotes" something he does not like. That's fine. And if something about the wedding cake signals "gay wedding" then he has a point. If it doesn't, he doesn't.
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Post 28 Jun 2017, 3:27 pm

By the way, the baker could turn away couples he disapproved of that were not members of cognizable groups. So he could (and should) turn away the guy who is married to a building, a 40 year old with 14 year old. and the other examples you gave because he would not be discriminating based on membership in a protected group

And I did forget to note that if a Christian Baker was forced by the State to put a gay message on a cake, then that would violate his First Amendment right to Freedom of Expression (because he is being forced to send a message that he does not believe in to adhere to a law against discrimination) But I don't believe that a wedding cake without a gay message on it contain any message What is it about the cake that connotes a message promoting gay marriage?
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Post 28 Jun 2017, 3:33 pm

freeman3 wrote:NIce try, bakery lawyers. A lawyer always has to come up with something. The baker says he won't sell a cake that "promotes" something he does not like. That's fine. And if something about the wedding cake signals "gay wedding" then he has a point. If it doesn't, he doesn't.


So, prove your point. Go ahead. I dare you.

And, have you ever seen a wedding cake that had no message on it?

Furthermore, if this baker claims to be an artist and does NOTHING on wedding cakes, then he would get laughed out of the USSC, right? On the other hand, if he "creates" as he claims, then he falls right under the exception YOU carved out for him.
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Post 28 Jun 2017, 3:36 pm

freeman3 wrote:By the way, the baker could turn away couples he disapproved of that were not members of cognizable groups. So he could (and should) turn away the guy who is married to a building, a 40 year old with 14 year old. and the other examples you gave because he would not be discriminating based on membership in a protected group


It was a woman who wanted to marry the building. And, give it time. The way our society is going there will be no bounds of propriety whatsoever.

And I did forget to note that if a Christian Baker was forced by the State to put a gay message on a cake, then that would violate his First Amendment right to Freedom of Expression (because he is being forced to send a message that he does not believe in to adhere to a law against discrimination) But I don't believe that a wedding cake without a gay message on it contain any message What is it about the cake that connotes a message promoting gay marriage?


I suppose you'd have to see the court docs--or a picture of the cake they wanted. However, the typical wedding cake has a bride and a groom on it, yes? So, it's not a stretch to suppose they might have wanted two grooms, is it? "Congratulations on Your Wedding, Tom and Tim" or whatever?
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Post 28 Jun 2017, 3:54 pm

I think the Baker could draw the line at putting two grooms on the cake. The Christian Baker bakes the wedding cake, come pick it up at the shop, no gay decorations. But you gotta bake the cake.
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Post 28 Jun 2017, 4:43 pm

freeman3 wrote:I think the Baker could draw the line at putting two grooms on the cake. The Christian Baker bakes the wedding cake, come pick it up at the shop, no gay decorations. But you gotta bake the cake.


But . . . you have no idea what happened.

Here's what we know: they didn't walk in and he said, "Hey, I don't serve your type."

Again, get some evidence, counselor.