rickyp wrote:Yes. Was he wrong to try and gain support for a foreign war?
He was also following the constitution in doing so...
Sure, just like he did in Libya.
Obama had a tenuous relationship with the Constitution.
http://thefederalist.com/2017/01/19/10- ... residency/My favorite was when he justified creating new immigration law because Congress "would not act." This in spite of multiple times he said he didn't have the Constitutional authority to do so.
Please, don't try to rewrite history by saying he gave a fig about the Constitution. He didn't want the political blowback.
Fate
A POTUS can take short-term action in defense of American interests. So, I disagree with Rand Paul here.
What American interest is served in this strike?
How different is the situation on the ground today than in 2013 when Congress and Trump were opposed?
1. Trump wasn't President, so he didn't have the intel he has now.
2. Obama didn't ask for a one-time strike.
3. The situation in Syria is far more complex--because of Obama's fecklessness in 2013.
4. US troops are on the ground, so we have an interest in eliminating the use of chemical weapons.
Fate
Was that the deal? Was Syria allowed to keep some? Did Kerry/Rice/Obama tell us ALL of the chemical weapons were gone? What was the verification regime?
The deal wasn't kept, by the Syrians or the Russians. Ultimately it failed but it kept chemical weapons out of play for almost three years. And it did deeply degrade Assads chemical stockpile...
Thank you for admitting Obama was a failure.
It hasn't worked ultimately. But it was a worthwhile attempt.
How is one missile strike stacking up against this attempt?
We don't know yet. Ask me in 4 years--that's how long it took for you to admit Obama failed.
Fate
That's not what the Obama team promised.
Promised? Hoped for, more like.
Bull. Kerry and Rice spoke with certainty.
Again, a worthwhile attempt that has saved lives perhaps. And certainly served to keep the US from being sucked into the Syrian quagmire for 4 years. You in favor of sending in 100,000 troops?
Hundreds of thousands have died as the result of Obama's spinelessness.
Fate
If the US wanted to wipe out those air strips, we would have wiped them out. As for the long-term effect, it's hard to tell after two days.
Destroying all the air strips was Hillary's plan... You support her foreign policy?
And its not hard to tell after two days. The Syrians are already flying bombers out of the same air field to bomb the same town that they attacked with chemical weapons.
Let me know when Assad uses chemical weapons again. My guess is he won't survive a week afterward.
Fate
So what? If he prays before Putin's statue every morning, that does not prove collusion.
Putin is guilty of many of the same war crimes that Assad is committing. (See Czechnya).
He murders journalists.
And yet Trump admires him....
"Admires" is present tense. Please provide some evidence.
Oh, you have none? How rare.
What does that prove? You've elected an idiot.
Yes, but at least he's not a crook. And, he did appoint a conservative to the Supreme Court.
And on an apparent whim he's spent at least $60 million to dust up a Syrian airfield because he got emotional. Something he apparently managed to avoid in 2013. (Maybe Fox news didn't show pictures of the gas victims in 2013?)
Once again, you descend to the depths of scum. Well, it is your natural habitat.
1. It was closer to $100M. Maybe your lefty sources don't give you "replacement costs."
2. We saw the gas victims in 2013--they were all over the media. The problem was we had a jellyfish as POTUS. That's why you loved him--invertebrates tend to befriend one another.
Fate
Based on what information?
Who knows what Mr. Comey is finding. I suspect financial records and dealings will come to bear. Intercepted communications too.
Oh, you "suspect." Well, that's as valuable as . . . the used tinfoil on your head.
And eventually someone will decide to cooperate with his investigators rather than take the fall for lying to the FBI. (A crime in and of itself.) And then who knows how many of Trumps team are indicted? I have 8, in the office pool.
Why do you think Trump is wagging the dog right now?
More tinhattery.
One word: Syria.
Fate
You are not providing context. What did Obama ask for? How long did it take him to ask for it? Obama is the man who took months to announce a slight change in policy in Afghanistan. He was a ditherer of the first order.
The context is that Congress didn't support action in Syria. Meaning he couldn't back up his "red line" in any meaningful way. His mistake was expecting Congress to care about the fate of hundreds of Syrians being gassed in 2013.
Lazy.
No one trusted Obama because they knew what a spineless wimp he was.Let’s look at the timeline:
August 20, 2012. “We have been very clear to the Assad regime, but also to other players on the ground, that a red line for us is we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons moving around or being utilized. That would change my calculus. That would change my equation.”
August 21, 2013. Major chemical attack on Ghouta, Syria. Approximately 3,600 people killed or injured.
August 22, 2013. Crickets.
August 31, 2013. Obama says he will ask Congress to authorize him to do nothing in Syria. He says inaction “risks making a mockery of the global prohibition on the use of chemicals weapons” and that it put U.S. regional allies that share a border with Syria in danger.” Pay attention to this:
Yet, while I believe I have the authority to carry out this military action without specific congressional authorization, I know that the country will be stronger if we take this course, and our actions will be even more effective.
September 3, 2013. Senate Foreign Affairs Committee holds a hearing. Committee passes resolution by 10-7. Please note that the Senate was Democrat controlled.
Democrats:
Bob Menendez, New Jersey Chairman – yes
Tom Udall, New Mexico – no
Chris Murphy, Connecticut – no
Ed Markey, Massachusetts – present
Barbara Boxer, California – yes
Ben Cardin, Maryland – yes
Jeanne Shaheen, New Hampshire – yes
Chris Coons, Delaware – yes
Dick Durbin, Illinois – yes
Tim Kaine, Virginia – yes
Republicans:
Bob Corker, Tennessee Ranking Member – yes
John McCain, Arizona – yes
Rand Paul, Kentucky – no
Jim Risch, Idaho – no
Marco Rubio, Florida – no
John Barrasso, Wyoming – no
Ron Johnson, Wisconsin – no
Jeff Flake, Arizona – yes
September 4, 2013. “I didn’t set a red line. The world set a red line when governments representing 98 percent of the world’s population said the use of chemical weapons are abhorrent and passed a treaty forbidding their use even when countries are engaged in war.”
September 6, 2013. Harry Reid files the resolution. Whip counts indicate senators were lukewarm-to-negative about the resolution.
House schedules testimony from John Kerry. Initial whip counts show the resolution is not a huge favorite with anyone. Even among Democrats who had decided on how to vote the resolution would fail by a 2:1 margin.
September 10, 2013. Syria agrees to give up its chemical weapons. Obama does a victory dance. No further action is taken on the resolution.
Let’s review the bidding: Obama waited ten days to decide to punt the decision to the Congress. When he did punt, he said he didn’t need to ask them but he was going to be a nice fella and do it anyway to make the little people feel involved. It was almost as if Obama consciously tried to poison the well with the House. Afterward, how did he react?
Early in the Syrian civil war, Obama publicly drew a red line concerning Assad’s behavior, but later decided to forgo military strikes, even after being presented with near-definitive proof that Assad had crossed the red line in grotesque fashion. Obama was widely criticized at home and abroad—particularly by the leaders of many U.S.-allied nations—for behavior interpreted as feckless and weak, but he later told me, in one of the interviews I conducted with him for a 2016 article on his worldview, that he was “very proud of this moment.”
“The perception was that my credibility was at stake, that America’s credibility was at stake,” Obama explained. “And so for me to press the pause button at that moment, I knew, would cost me politically. And the fact that I was able to pull back from the immediate pressures and think through in my own mind what was in America’s interest, not only with respect to Syria but also with respect to our democracy, was as tough a decision as I’ve made—and I believe ultimately it was the right decision to make.”
The “immediate pressures” he successfully “pull[ed] back from” was the pressure to attack Syria. He never intended to strike Syria and cynically used the US Congress to give him cover for his decision.
Fate
How many have died between then and now?
Plenty. Would you have landed 100,000 troops in Syria to intervene?
We didn't have to. Obama did everything wrong. He (through his press secretary) virtually invited Russia in. He refused to try and arm the rebels. He refused to take any kind of action vs. ISIL except lob missiles.
There were options other than 100,000 troops. That's just lazy liberal blather.
Congress didn't approve of any action..... so his hands were tied weren't they?
By Congress. (Mostly republicans)
Wrong, as usual. The Senate was controlled by Democrats. (See above) Obama didn't want to do anything, but didn't want to give that impression. So, he tried to give blame to Congress.
Fate
Who all but invited the Russians in?
Congress?
Sorry, but are you a liar or just stupid? The White House said Thursday that Russia had “further isolated itself” by carrying out airstrikes in Syria and was putting itself in jeopardy.
“The fact is that carrying out indiscriminate military operations against the Syrian opposition is dangerous for Russia,” White House spokesman Josh Earnest told reporters.
He said Russian interference would prolong the sectarian conflict inside Syria. “It also risks Russia being drawn even more deeply into that conflict,” he said, pointing out that Russia already had acknowledged there could be no military solution in Syria.
Earnest also said that what he called Russia’s “indiscriminate” strikes would drive moderate elements of the Syrian opposition toward extremism, and ultimately exacerbate extremism inside Russia.
Russia's actions in Syria have not led to a "broad re-evaluation" of the U.S. strategy there, Earnest said.
Over and over again, the White House did nothing but mumble.
When the civil war broke out, how many Russian planes were in Syria?
Zero.In August 2015, Russia began to send Russian-operated warplanes, T-90 tanks and artillery, as well as combat troops to an airbase near the port city of Latakia in Syria.[128][129]
On 26 August 2015, a treaty was signed between Russia and Syria that stipulated terms and conditions of use by Russia of Syria's Hmeimim airport, free of charge and with no time limit.[130] The treaty, ratified by Russia′s parliament in October 2016, grants Russia′s personnel and their family members jurisdictional immunity and other privileges as envisaged by Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.[131]
Fate
Who cut a nuclear deal with Iran while allowing Iran to continue to support Assad with troops?
Germany, Britain, France, the EU, China, Russia and the US cut the deal.
Would you rather Iran had nuclear weapons now?
Do you ever stop being idiotic? Really? Ever?
I really hope you find a good doctor who can help you.