Ray Jay wrote:I do agree that there should be some preferences but it certainly isn't a panacea given the state of the country.

I think it should either be strictly economically based OR every person should have to check a box indicating they want preferences (or they don't). Each person asking for preference, would have an extensive background check and a determination made. Malia and Sasha would be out of luck--nothing against them, as all of Trump's kids and grandkids would be out of luck too. Strict race-based preferences don't seem appropriate.

I am not that concerned about preferences. At best, that allows a few people better access to educational/work that can pull a few people out of poverty. My main point there was that the government need not treat everyone exactly equally when one group was not treated equally for a long period of time.

I see the continuing lag in African-American underachievement in educational and economic terms to be a societal problem that we should try to fix...until it gets fixed. What are the causes and how we can fix them? It should be a societal embarrassment that a group of our fellow countrymen that was discriminated against for so long continues to lag in educational/economic achievement, with many of them still living in de facto segregated communities. Giving preferences for a while (which don't even address underlying causes) and then saying well we did what we can is not good enough, in my opinion. We should be willing to put substantial societal resources to fix this problem because it's a continuing sore.

What are the main causes of societal lag to a young black child today?

I forgot to respond to Brad. I long time ago I had a heated argument with a more liberal friend about whether a minority group like blacks could be racist. And I said of course they could be if they treated whites based on their membership in a group. But clearly a black person's racism is far less of a concern than a white person's racism because there is generally less power involved (his argument was since a minority group had no power they could not be racist).That could be different in some cases but generally we can say that white racists have more of an ability to cause negative effects on black people because in general they have more power. So it more or less becomes semantics--you can say a black person who doesn't like white people and has no power is not racist because they have no power OR you can say they are racist and develop a new word to describe minority groups who have discriminatory views but have no ability to impose their views on the majority group. I am comfortable with calling a black person who hates white people racist while at the same recognizing it is not quite as big of a problem as the majority white racists because of the differential power between whites and blacks.

With regard to the government it can treat groups differently based on race without being racist because it is not necessarily doing so out of a dislike for a racial group. If the government favors one racial group to make up for past discrimination then it is not doing so because it dislikes white or seeks to stigmatize them. Therefore it is not being racist when it does so.

I forgot to respond to Brad. A long time ago I had a heated argument with a more liberal friend about whether a minority group like blacks could be racist. And I said of course they could be if they treated whites poorly based on their membership in a group. But clearly a black person's racism is far less of a concern than a white person's racism because there is generally less power involved (his argument was since a minority group had no power they could not be racist).That could be different in some cases but generally we can say that white racists have more of an ability to cause negative effects on black people because in general they have more power. So it more or less becomes semantics--you can say a black person who doesn't like white people and has no power is not racist because they have no power OR you can say they are racist and develop a new word to describe minority groups who have discriminatory views but have no ability to impose their views on the majority group. I am comfortable with calling a black person who hates white people racist while at the same recognizing it is not quite as big of a problem as the majority white racists because of the differential power between whites and blacks.

With regard to the government it can treat groups differently based on race without being racist because it is not necessarily doing so out of a dislike for a racial group. If the government favors one racial group to make up for past discrimination then it is not doing so because it dislikes white or seeks to stigmatize them. Therefore it is not being racist when it does so.

Can a white person in Alabama who lives in a trailer, on welfare, working at a convenience store for minimum wage be racist against a high power power lawyer, community organizer, senator and POTUS?

The white has no power over the black in this case, IMO. I am not trying to pick nits. I am trying to understand your statement.

I mentioned that black men/women may have more power in individual cases and some whites have no power. But the overall power structure is white dominated. Think of Jim Crow era South--there were poor whites with little power but they had power over black people because they were tied into the overall power structure. That's an extreme example but there it is easier to see how a majority group always has a certain degree of power because of their membership in that group. Similarly, that poor Alabama white person can still tie into the white power structure if he is being mistreated by a black group. It's a complex subject and I don't think we really accurately analyze all that goes on with power--how much connection people feel with a more or less socially constructed white group--but clearly those who are part of the white majority have differential power overall to protect themselves against negative actions taken by other groups. If a minority group takes action against that poor Alabaman white person he has access to better protection than a person in a minority group. Let me just give a for instance. Let's say a white dominated police force pays more attention to young black males because of implied bias. Those white police officers have all the power of the state behind them. Those young black males--even if they dislike white police officers--have no power. It is hard to even imagine a black police force in Alabama focusing on the poor white male.

OK, I disagree with you, but OK.

We are no longer in Jim Crow, and thank goodness. I saw discrimination when I was in Virginia, but it was toward my wife, adopted son (who is Black), and myself. We had great support and praise from our friends (including a couple families who are Black and mixed race). The discrimination came from Blacks who said that I don't have the right to raise a Black child, and what I am doing is morally wrong, and I cannot provide for his needs because I am White.

That is offensive; and in my opinion, racist. Is that possible in your world view?

I don't have a problem with your raising a black child. But have you tried to look at the situation through their eyes at all, Brad? There are thousands of blacks adopted by white families...the reverse is almost zero. Here is an article about the experience of the rare occurrence of a black family adopting a white child, if you think that somehow whites react to blacks adopting white children better than the reverse. Be honest: would you be 100% comfortable if a black middle-class family that lives in the inner-city adopted a white child?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek ... ent=safari

Try to imagine all of the little slights they the typical black person has had to deal with in a white dominated society. Can you imagine they might have this visceral reaction, like now they are taking our children, too? Here comes the white parent to raise the black kid because we can't do it ourselves? That doesn't mean those blacks were right in their reaction to you-they weren't--but you might want to consider the whole context of their reaction.

Look, it's a good thing you're doing, Brad. And those blacks in Virginia should have minded their own business. But whites adopting black children can touch nerves just because of the long history of blacks being discriminated against by whites in the US. Not just discriminated against but judged to be inferior. And stereotypes about blacks have not just magically disappeared. There are racial self-esteem issues involved I think when a black person reacts negatively to a black child getting adopted by a white parent.

Freeman, honestly I can say without a doubt, that if a Black family wanted to adopt a White child I am totally fine with it. The family is the most important thing. It should be well-adjusted, supported, and financially able to meet the needs of the child. I would personally add religious requirements, but the state does not.

I am saying that color does not matter to me. Character, Ability, Honor and Spiritually centered are the aspects that are important to me.

You are right. People should have minded their own business. Can I see things through their eyes? I admit that I have difficulty doing that. I grew up poorer than most people. I did not have College as an option. Heck, my first job (Age 9) was sweeping the sidewalk in front of the local store for $1 a day all summer, and I gave that to Mom to help. I did not have a dad in the picture.

My life sucked. No, I was not raised a poor Black child. But I had adversity, and enough gumption to overcome it. I do have difficulty seeing the situation they are living in, because I lived in it and STROVE to overcome. When someone wallows in their current condition, they have NOBODY to blame but themselves.

I will get off my soapbox now.

I don't have a problem with your raising a black child. But have you tried to look at the situation through their eyes at all, Brad?

using this failed logic I guess we should stop and look at the situation through the eyes of the racist who is wearing a Ku Klux Klan hood over his head? If some idiot white supremist calls a black person the N word, we should "look at the situation through their eyes"?
sorry, Brads example was pure racism, plain and simple! I need not look at their feelings, they are racists! They can have their reasons but frankly, the reasons don;t much matter to me...

Interestingly, I know a Black family that is currently looking at adoption. They are so rare that they are vaulting to the top of the list and can pick whatever child they want.

That's sad.

I mean, I am happy for them and for the child, but what does that say?

Meanwhile, more than 72% of Black babies are born out of wedlock. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... an-americ/

That is astounding.

There seems to be a link between marriage and keeping children out of poverty. http://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-ine ... ld-poverty

The primary definition of racism is a belief is that your race is superior to another race. Blacks objecting to white adoption of black children is not racist. It's not even necessarily prejudice towards white people, but simply a belief that black children should be raised by black parents. Let's not water down the meaning of such words.

We just had a presidential election where a candidate's first campaign speech started by saying Mexican immigrants bring drugs, bring crime, they're rapists. He won that election. That is racism. He still won the election. Yet, some whites want to pretend that we live in a color-blind society. I guarantee you if a candidate said something like that about immigrants from Europe he or she would not win.

Congratulations Brad you made it even after starting in poor circumstances. You should give lectures to black communities and tell them just apply themselves like you did and they will be successes...Maybe, that's a little harsh but I am always amazed that people who are successful just assume that everyone else can do what they did. No one's path in life is the same, people have different intelligence levels and abilities, schools are different, they have parents who parent more or less well, people around can have higher or lower expectations of them, teachers can believe or not believe in them, can have poorer or better teachers, more or less crime in the community, some face discrimination on account of their race, some people are more likely to get arrested for juvenile peccadillos than others because of their race, some people have lower expectations placed on their race, some people eat a poorer diet, some household emphasize reading or education more. The list can go and on. There a huge number of things that are not within a person's control growing up. Why do you think Jewish and Asian households do so well? A cultural emphasis on education and achieving success. People don't control being born Jewish or Asian.

One should be proud of one's accomplishments but saying that your success can be replicated by everyone ignores the different life plans that people have and almost certainly ignores the advantages you did have that other people don't have.

Freeman,
I think you misunderstand. I am saying it is not a Black/White issue. I made it from poor economic position. I know Blacks who have done the same. You surely do as well. If it can be done by either race, it can be done. I do not hold a negative view of Blacks by saying they need assistance to make it.

You are the one saying that.

We need to look at why there is such difficulty in the inner cities for all people. I think the survey that DF posted is quite causal. There is a larger economic issue when children are born out of wedlock. Perhaps looking to remedy that would be a better place your your efforts.

freeman3 wrote:We just had a presidential election where a candidate's first campaign speech started by saying Mexican immigrants bring drugs, bring crime, they're rapists. He won that election. That is racism.

What he said was stupid. However, you are not accurately quoting him. If Trump said ALL Mexicans are drug smugglers, criminals, and rapists, you'd be right. He didn't and you're not.

He said "Mexico is not sending us their best." Well, the government isn't "sending" anyone. However, the people coming are not coming here because their lives in Mexico are luxurious. They come here illegally because they're desperate. And, some of them are criminals--that's reality, not racism.

He still won the election. Yet, some whites want to pretend that we live in a color-blind society. I guarantee you if a candidate said something like that about immigrants from Europe he or she would not win.

I guarantee if you go to a County Jail in SoCal you will find 25% or more of the population is not from the US, but from south of the border: Mexico, El Salvador, Nicaragua, etc. I don't think you'll find all that many crooks from Europe. Please let me know if you find I'm in error.

Congratulations Brad you made it even after starting in poor circumstances. You should give lectures to black communities and tell them just apply themselves like you did and they will be successes...Maybe, that's a little harsh but I am always amazed that people who are successful just assume that everyone else can do what they did. No one's path in life is the same, people have different intelligence levels and abilities, schools are different, they have parents who parent more or less well, people around can have higher or lower expectations of them, teachers can believe or not believe in them, can have poorer or better teachers, more or less crime in the community, some face discrimination on account of their race, some people are more likely to get arrested for juvenile peccadillos than others because of their race, some people have lower expectations placed on their race, some people eat a poorer diet, some household emphasize reading or education more. The list can go and on. There a huge number of things that are not within a person's control growing up. Why do you think Jewish and Asian households do so well? A cultural emphasis on education and achieving success. People don't control being born Jewish or Asian.

I'll wager the divorce rate and the out of wedlock rate is lower in the Jewish and Asian communities. Those are major drivers.

Every kid I arrested for peccadilloes was white. I'm quite proud of that.

One should be proud of one's accomplishments but saying that your success can be replicated by everyone ignores the different life plans that people have and almost certainly ignores the advantages you did have that other people don't have.

Not everyone can be brad. However, suggesting success/failure is a matter of genetics is . . . well, racist.