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Post 19 Feb 2017, 11:16 am

danivon wrote:
freeman3 wrote:Good point, Danivon. I just wish you would help out in countering the three-headed conservative hydra, but I guess you got tired of it.
Very. I get more enjoyment from playing with my (mixed race) toddler. He can be stubborn and avoid listening to reason, too, but his cheeky smile is easier to deal with.

Besides, I may get to meet DF in a few months' time.


Aye, ya will.

We're actually taking a tour of the island for 9 days, then spending a couple of extra days in London before Oxford.
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Post 19 Feb 2017, 11:25 am

rickyp wrote:fate
Good point: so let's stop giving welfare to mothers who have children with men in prison!

And what happens to those children then?


Is there any such thing as personal responsibility?

If someone can't sort out that having children with a man who is currently imprisoned is a bad idea, then what can they sort out?

fate
Here's another idea: don't break the law!
I know, I know--crazy, right? I mean who doesn't want to sling some dope?


Or are the laws stupid? Like third strike? Like drug laws?


Meh. Some laws are stupid. I have a friend who did 18 years in prison because (ultimately) he had a heroin problem. Thankfully, he's a changed man now. But, the truth is he simply needed sufficient time to get off of heroin. He could have done that in rehab.

On the other hand, some people are violent and will not change. Our laws need to do a better job of addressing that.

Drug laws are a whole other matter. Start a thread.

Here's whats happened in Colorado.
According to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, the state saw an overall decrease of 1 percent in reported crimes for 2014. The state also saw an overall decrease of 2.5 percent in the crime rate per 100,000 people. Digging even deeper, Colorado experienced a 3.1 percent drop in property crimes and a 12.8 percent decrease in homicides.
In Denver, which is the hub of legal pot sales as well as the capital and the most populous city in the state, assaults, murders, burglaries, rapes, and other violent crimes also declined during the first three months of 2014 when compared with the same time period in 2013. Automobile break-ins went from 2,317 to 1,477, which represents a 36 percent decrease. Homicides went from 17 to 8, which is a 53 percent decrease, and sexual assaults went from 110 to 95 — a 14 percent drop.
Additionally, total burglaries in Denver went from 5,094 in 2013 to 4,594 in 2014, which is about a 10 percent drop. In 2013, there were 1,137 reported robberies in the city, yet in 2014 this dropped 3 percent to 1,099. Finally, licensed marijuana facilities in the city also saw a decrease in burglaries. In 2013, there were 147 burglaries reported in Denver. However, in 2014 there were 118 burglaries reported at licensed marijuana facilities.


Is it worth putting all kinds of young men in prison for drug possession or dealing when legalizing and regulating drugs both decreases crime and raises all kinds of tax revenue? $70 million in 2015.


I go to Denver at least once a year. Legalizing marijuana has made it a very unpleasant visit. In fact, I actually hate going there now.


fate
1. If someone is in prison, a woman should not try to conceive a child with him. That's just kind of, you know, common sense.

Lets consider the circumstance where the pregnancy occurred before the man was convicted of a crime. Perhaps the woman didn't have access to birth control, or they didn't work or they were planning to get married but .....


It could happen. That said, "access to birth control" is bogus. Please tell me in what State it is illegal or so expensive it can't be reasonably obtained. I'll wait.

Young people, especially men, are often ruled by impulses. Providing free access to birth control and sex education would seem to be the cheapest solution to all the problems. And eliminating unwanted pregnancies would also eliminate abortion as a solution for women caught in an unplanned pregnancy. Something I know you'd like to see. Me too.


So, society is responsible to make up for every mistake someone makes, every impulse they have?

If only I'd known when I was younger!

Again, when is someone actually responsible for themselves? Does that ever happen?

fate
Men should not be having children they can't or won't support

And yet they do.
Shall we punish the children for the crimes of their parents as well? Or shall we try to end the cycle of poverty with education, health care and targeted assistance?


The cycle of poverty is bull. People can escape it. However, if they see no need, if Uncle Sam takes care of every "impulse" they have, then what's the point?

fate
Problem solved. You're welcome.

Problem ignored.
With no solution offered.

Fate
"Incarceration" is a rubbish word. People are "incarcerated" for "breaking the law." Obey the law and you don't get "incarcerated."

Some laws are pretty stupid. Like drug possession and use. (See Colorado, Portugal, Switzerland for how things improve when you change those laws..)
Blacks are incarcerated (an excellent word) at a much higher rate than whites, for the same crimes
. About 14 million Whites and 2.6 million African Americans report using an illicit drug
5 times as many Whites are using drugs as African Americans, yet African Americans are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of Whites
African Americans represent 12% of the total population of drug users, but 38% of those arrested for drug offenses, and 59% of those in state prison for a drug offense.
African Americans serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense (58.7 months) as whites do for a violent offense (61.7 months). (Sentencing Project)


fate
Who is most likely to shoot and kill a black man?

A black man.
So regulate legal drugs, and there will be fewer dealers shooting each other and bystanders. (see 53% drop in homicides in Denver)
And make laws for gun ownership and licensed use, as onerous as car ownership/driving and you'll see a drop in the rate of gun deaths the same way car accident death rate decreased since the 60s.
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Post 19 Feb 2017, 2:55 pm

Fate
Is there any such thing as personal responsibility?
If someone can't sort out that having children with a man who is currently imprisoned is a bad idea, then what can they sort out?

Doesn't answer "what happens to the children ...if the welfare is cut off.
Apparently doesn't care about the children.

fate
Meh. Some laws are stupid. I have a friend who did 18 years in prison because (ultimately) he had a heroin problem. Thankfully, he's a changed man now. But, the truth is he simply needed sufficient time to get off of heroin. He could have done that in rehab

In Switzerland they would have treated him as an addict without prison. In fact they would have prescribed him heroin in a program designed to help him rehabilitate.
All for far less money than the 18 years of prison cost American tax payers. ($32K X 18 = $576K) And by cutting out the dealers they both cut out the dealers who try and hook new addicts and they eliminate the crime of addicts stealing to get the money for a fix.

Fate
Drug laws are a whole other matter. Start a thread.

The laws, and their unequal application, are contributing to the break down of the black family unit. Its on point.

Fate
I go to Denver at least once a year. Legalizing marijuana has made it a very unpleasant visit. In fact, I actually hate going there now.

So on the one hand, taxes have been raised and crime has gone down, and incarceration rates are much lower.
On the other you find it unpleasant.
You are soooo persuasive.

Fate
That said, "access to birth control" is bogus. Please tell me in what State it is illegal or so expensive it can't be reasonably obtained. I'll wait.

Average cost for pills, if not covered by insurance is $1250 a year. A teenager in a poor family would find that difficult.
The cost of providing free birth control versus 18 years of welfare for single mothers ... peanuts. (This is a cost benefit analysis that every fiscal conservative would love. If they weren't so squeamish about sex)
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues ... h-control/

Fate
So, society is responsible to make up for every mistake someone makes, every impulse they have?
If only I'd known when I was younger!
Again, when is someone actually responsible for themselves? Does that ever happen?

So, morally you have a good arguement. except that it doesn't solve the problem in any way shape or form.

Fate
The cycle of poverty is bull. People can escape it. However, if they see no need, if Uncle Sam takes care of every "impulse" they have, then what's the point?

Providing poor children with a free, high quality education and nutrition would go a long ways to helping them get out of the cycle of poverty .
If they are being raised by single women, no more than children themselves, this becomes difficult. And if they live in a community where most of the men are in, or have been in prison because of the "war on drugs" being fought primarily with incarceration ... ..then the culture becomes one of acceptance of the unfairness of their circumstance.
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Post 20 Feb 2017, 6:34 am

I really did have to laugh there...
"incarceration destroys families"
That's not only a stupid no brainer comment but it honestly sounds like Ricky wants us to stop sending criminals to jail. I guess we should just let them "do their thing" so these criminals can raise fine upstanding families?
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Post 20 Feb 2017, 12:15 pm

tom
That's not only a stupid no brainer comment but it honestly sounds like Ricky wants us to stop sending criminals to jail. I guess we should just let them "do their thing" so these criminals can raise fine upstanding families?


I'm all for sending violent criminals to jail. And white collar criminals who do significant damage. And even for property crimes, if significant.
I'm not for sending drug users to jail. Nor am I a fan of three strikes laws that put people in jail for life after three inconsequential crimes.

Why shouldn't people be allowed to use marijuana Tom? Why should people who do be considered criminals and subject to jail terms?
For that matter why should anyone's personal use of a drug be a jail able offence?
In Colorado they decreased crime, including homicides as a result of legalizing and regulating marijuana sales. And has resulted in increased tax revenue, whilst decreasing the taxes spent to house prisoners. Please explain why this is a bad thing. Organized crime has been dealt an enormous blow.
If it can be done for marijuana why wouldn't it make sense to allow a similar treatment for other drugs. In Switzerland they do and they've decreased drug use and crime has gone down. Portugal too.
What has the war on drugs done that is so positive? And yes, one very large negative, is that it is contributing to the destruction of family life, mostly the poor , and especially of poor blacks.
Why keep doing something that is so obviously failing in its goals, and having terrible unintended consequences?
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Post 20 Feb 2017, 1:28 pm

uhhh, Ricky, please show where I am against legalizing marijuana. Never said it because I am all for it. make it legal, tax the hell out of it and make some money for the state! I am also for legalizing prostitution, I am for limited gun control, etc (you assume I am a raging conservative perhaps?)

People in prison for minor drug offenses is a problem, I agree
Blacks tend to have greater numbers, i agree

But that's only part of the problem, your attempt to paint this as a minor drug offense issue really ignores the real problem now doesn't it? C'mon be honest for a change...
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Post 20 Feb 2017, 1:30 pm

Doctor Fate wrote:
danivon wrote:
freeman3 wrote:Good point, Danivon. I just wish you would help out in countering the three-headed conservative hydra, but I guess you got tired of it.
Very. I get more enjoyment from playing with my (mixed race) toddler. He can be stubborn and avoid listening to reason, too, but his cheeky smile is easier to deal with.

Besides, I may get to meet DF in a few months' time.


Aye, ya will.

We're actually taking a tour of the island for 9 days, then spending a couple of extra days in London before Oxford.
ah well, hit me up when you are likely to be in the Warwickshire area and I will buy you a beer. And I am planning on getting to the WDC, just haven't booked yet
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Post 20 Feb 2017, 1:36 pm

rickyp wrote:Fate
Is there any such thing as personal responsibility?
If someone can't sort out that having children with a man who is currently imprisoned is a bad idea, then what can they sort out?

Doesn't answer "what happens to the children ...if the welfare is cut off.
Apparently doesn't care about the children.


False.

fate
Meh. Some laws are stupid. I have a friend who did 18 years in prison because (ultimately) he had a heroin problem. Thankfully, he's a changed man now. But, the truth is he simply needed sufficient time to get off of heroin. He could have done that in rehab

In Switzerland they would have treated him as an addict without prison. In fact they would have prescribed him heroin in a program designed to help him rehabilitate.
All for far less money than the 18 years of prison cost American tax payers. ($32K X 18 = $576K) And by cutting out the dealers they both cut out the dealers who try and hook new addicts and they eliminate the crime of addicts stealing to get the money for a fix.


We're not Switzerland, but we should invest in rehab.

Making all drugs legal will not solve the problem.

Fate
Drug laws are a whole other matter. Start a thread.

The laws, and their unequal application, are contributing to the break down of the black family unit. Its on point.


No, breaking the existing law is the problem. If you don't break the law, you don't go to prison (unless you're the minute percentage of really innocent).

Fate
I go to Denver at least once a year. Legalizing marijuana has made it a very unpleasant visit. In fact, I actually hate going there now.

So on the one hand, taxes have been raised and crime has gone down, and incarceration rates are much lower.
On the other you find it unpleasant.
You are soooo persuasive.


Take a trip there. Mingle amid the homeless potheads. Smoke with them. It's your kind of crowd--mindless, pointless, and . . . wait a second . . . did you move to Denver?

Fate
That said, "access to birth control" is bogus. Please tell me in what State it is illegal or so expensive it can't be reasonably obtained. I'll wait.

Average cost for pills, if not covered by insurance is $1250 a year. A teenager in a poor family would find that difficult.
The cost of providing free birth control versus 18 years of welfare for single mothers ... peanuts. (This is a cost benefit analysis that every fiscal conservative would love. If they weren't so squeamish about sex)
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues ... h-control/


Great. If it's peanuts, they can pay it.

Look, we get it. You love socialism. The government is responsible to provide everything.

Fate
So, society is responsible to make up for every mistake someone makes, every impulse they have?
If only I'd known when I was younger!
Again, when is someone actually responsible for themselves? Does that ever happen?

So, morally you have a good arguement. except that it doesn't solve the problem in any way shape or form.


Neither does just forcing someone else to pay.

Fate
The cycle of poverty is bull. People can escape it. However, if they see no need, if Uncle Sam takes care of every "impulse" they have, then what's the point?

Providing poor children with a free, high quality education and nutrition would go a long ways to helping them get out of the cycle of poverty .
If they are being raised by single women, no more than children themselves, this becomes difficult. And if they live in a community where most of the men are in, or have been in prison because of the "war on drugs" being fought primarily with incarceration ... ..then the culture becomes one of acceptance of the unfairness of their circumstance.


And, so, comrade . . . we have heard your brilliant proposal: government should pay from cradle to grave.

Got it.
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Post 20 Feb 2017, 1:38 pm

danivon wrote:
Doctor Fate wrote:
danivon wrote:
freeman3 wrote:Good point, Danivon. I just wish you would help out in countering the three-headed conservative hydra, but I guess you got tired of it.
Very. I get more enjoyment from playing with my (mixed race) toddler. He can be stubborn and avoid listening to reason, too, but his cheeky smile is easier to deal with.

Besides, I may get to meet DF in a few months' time.


Aye, ya will.

We're actually taking a tour of the island for 9 days, then spending a couple of extra days in London before Oxford.
ah well, hit me up when you are likely to be in the Warwickshire area and I will buy you a beer. And I am planning on getting to the WDC, just haven't booked yet


Sure. I'm not sure where that is, but I'll figure it out. We're quite looking forward to it.

We tried to book the hotel in Oxford that used to be a prison, but it was all full. :(
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Post 20 Feb 2017, 5:46 pm

Doctor Fate wrote:
danivon wrote:
Doctor Fate wrote:
danivon wrote:
freeman3 wrote:Good point, Danivon. I just wish you would help out in countering the three-headed conservative hydra, but I guess you got tired of it.
Very. I get more enjoyment from playing with my (mixed race) toddler. He can be stubborn and avoid listening to reason, too, but his cheeky smile is easier to deal with.

Besides, I may get to meet DF in a few months' time.


Aye, ya will.

We're actually taking a tour of the island for 9 days, then spending a couple of extra days in London before Oxford.
ah well, hit me up when you are likely to be in the Warwickshire area and I will buy you a beer. And I am planning on getting to the WDC, just haven't booked yet


Sure. I'm not sure where that is, but I'll figure it out. We're quite looking forward to it.

We tried to book the hotel in Oxford that used to be a prison, but it was all full. :(

Yeah, that is a good hotel, quite pricey. Warwickshire is a bit to the North of Oxford. It's where Stratford-upon-Avon is.
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Post 21 Feb 2017, 8:31 am

danivon wrote:Yeah, that is a good hotel, quite pricey. Warwickshire is a bit to the North of Oxford. It's where Stratford-upon-Avon is.


Most of the nice ones are pricey, especially at that time of year. However, we're not pinching pennies on this trip. We want to just enjoy it, particularly as we focus on rejoining the British Empire. :winkgrin:
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Post 21 Feb 2017, 3:25 pm

tom
But that's only part of the problem, your attempt to paint this as a minor drug offense issue really ignores the real problem now doesn't it?

I'll bite Tom. Whats the real problem?
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Post 22 Feb 2017, 7:35 am

Not sure where to put this so I'll put it here. Chris Long's responses to people on Twitter criticizing him for not going to the White House to celebrate New England's Super Bowl win. Hilarious.

http://www.vocativ.com/falsestart/40346 ... e=outbrain
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Post 22 Feb 2017, 7:56 am

The "real problem" is complex and involves a heckuvalot of issues. Trying to make this a drug law issue is a laugh.

I can point to several issues
*Breakdown of the family unit in inner cities especially
*A "Black Culture" (ask me and that term is racist alone) that is tolerant of teen pregnancy, of sleeping around, of drug use, of skipping school, of scamming the government, fathers having no responsibilities etc. This is not a "culture" thing, it's nothing more than an excuse to make it ok. Instead of correcting these things we blame it on a "culture" and lefties have sympathy for this culture they do not understand. They make it worse by giving more money to these people so they can continue to lag behind and have no reason to lift themselves out of their situation. There are MANY reasons but stop talking about a "black culture" that allows this sort of behavior and you can start to correct part of the problem!

Go ahead and flame away my lefty friends but you know this is true.
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Post 22 Feb 2017, 12:27 pm

freeman3 wrote:Not sure where to put this so I'll put it here. Chris Long's responses to people on Twitter criticizing him for not going to the White House to celebrate New England's Super Bowl win. Hilarious.

http://www.vocativ.com/falsestart/40346 ... e=outbrain


There were so many typos on the blog that I began to suspect it belongs to rickyp.

I'm just sayin'.