It makes me laugh, DF. You're a conservative. Conservatives did not rebel against the British (conservatives were loyal Tories who supports the king); conservatives did not free the slaves; conservatives did not end Jim Crow; conservatives did not support women being equal; conservatives did not support civil rights in the 1960s. It was liberals who made the world a better place. Conservatives support the status quo, they support the establishment. Your argument that Democrats/liberals who are fighting to make sure that minorities have an equal shot are racists is just such a distorted and twisted interpretation of the facts. Oh sure, if you had been an adult in the 1960s you would have marched for civil rights. Sure. Like you have been for gay civil rights. But the Bible says...yeah, the Bible was used to justify slavery.

freeman3 wrote:It makes me laugh, DF. You're a conservative. Conservatives did not rebel against the British (conservatives were loyal Tories who supports the king); conservatives did not free the slaves; conservatives did not end Jim Crow; conservatives did not support women being equal; conservatives did not support civil rights in the 1960s. It was liberals who made the world a better place. Conservatives support the status quo, they support the establishment. Your argument that Democrats/liberals who are fighting to make sure that minorities have an equal shot are racists is just such a distorted and twisted interpretation of the facts. Oh sure, if you had been an adult in the 1960s you would have marched for civil rights. Sure. Like you have been for gay civil rights. But the Bible says...yeah, the Bible was used to justify slavery.

Godless heathens ruled the USSR.

Your arguments are just as erroneous.

I am a Constitutionalist. I am in favor of the true meaning of it, which includes the equality of all persons. I am against that which it does not include, particularly the usurpation of the powers of Congress by the judicial and executive branches.

My old pastor was arrested in the South during the hours after the assassination of MLK. His crime? Ministering to Blacks and hanging around with someone with the last name of "Evers."

When you traffic in stereotypes, you often end up in error. You do--and you do.

Medgar Evers was assassinated in 1963 so apparently your old pastor was hanging around with his ghost...and I did not know your pastor but I don't see why he is pertinent here. I would like to see an example of a person who stood up for black civil rights, who stood up for female equality, who now believes Democrats are the ones that are racists. I don't think such a person exists.

Godless heathens...goodness. I did not know people talked like that anymore.

freeman3 wrote:Medgar Evers was assassinated in 1963 so apparently your old pastor was hanging around with his ghost...and I did not know your pastor but I don't see why he is pertinent here. I would like to see an example of a person who stood up for black civil rights, who stood up for female equality, who now believes Democrats are the ones that are racists. I don't think such a person exists.

Godless heathens...goodness. I did not know people talked like that anymore.

See, now there you go . . . making assumptions again.

It was Medgar's brother. I never said it was Medgar Evers.

I can name plenty. It just so happens you would know none of them. However, there is an LA radio personality who might fit the bill: Larry Elder.

It's simple, really. You believe Blacks, women, and other minorities can only compete if the government cripples the competition.

Alright, you get the last word.

Wow. A bunch of the white guys arguing about racism. You done yet?

Really? That's your take? Don't bother arguing about it because we're white and cannot possibly understand it? Honestly, that's pretty disappointing coming from you. With a black wife I am sure you would have an interesting take on things. Instead of hearing that it's a pox on both your houses...

freeman3 wrote:Really? That's your take? Don't bother arguing about it because we're white and cannot possibly understand it? Honestly, that's pretty disappointing coming from you. With a black wife I am sure you would have an interesting take on things. Instead of hearing that it's a pox on both your houses...

Do you really think that if I were to give my opinion, that DF would deign to treat it with respect? Or that it would bend bbauska from saying that government policies that help minorities are racist? Or that Tom would have a cogent response at all?

danivon wrote:

freeman3 wrote:Really? That's your take? Don't bother arguing about it because we're white and cannot possibly understand it? Honestly, that's pretty disappointing coming from you. With a black wife I am sure you would have an interesting take on things. Instead of hearing that it's a pox on both your houses...

Do you really think that if I were to give my opinion, that DF would deign to treat it with respect? Or that it would bend bbauska from saying that government policies that help minorities are racist? Or that Tom would have a cogent response at all?

I understand your position, Danivon. I feel the same way quite often.

Guys, I don't have all the answers, but I do think that Brad's son will do better in life if Brad tells him that if he works hard he can achieve tremendous things as opposed to it's a racist society and you will be limited by unfair treatment no matter what you do.

Good point, Danivon. I just wish you would help out in countering the three-headed conservative hydra, but I guess you got tired of it. And RJ, sure, as an individual you have to have the attitude of no excuses, I'm going to be the best I can be. I have a very strong belief that people should hone their talents whatever they may be. Work hard at sharpening your abilities in a few areas and become really, really good at what you do. I see it almost as an obligation. But policy making is a different kettle of corn.

freeman3 wrote:And RJ, sure, as an individual you have to have the attitude of no excuses, I'm going to be the best I can be. I have a very strong belief that people should hone their talents whatever they may be. Work hard at sharpening your abilities in a few areas and become really, really good at what you do. I see it almost as an obligation. But policy making is a different kettle of corn.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss policy impacts (sometimes subtle, and sometimes not) on individual behavior. In fact, it may be the most important part of policy.

Ray Jay wrote:Guys, I don't have all the answers, but I do think that Brad's son will do better in life if Brad tells him that if he works hard he can achieve tremendous things as opposed to it's a racist society and you will be limited by unfair treatment no matter what you do.

Is it a binary thing? The reality is that yes, you can with effort and luck achieve what you want, but that racism is likely to have an impact at some point.

freeman3 wrote:Good point, Danivon. I just wish you would help out in countering the three-headed conservative hydra, but I guess you got tired of it.

Very. I get more enjoyment from playing with my (mixed race) toddler. He can be stubborn and avoid listening to reason, too, but his cheeky smile is easier to deal with.

Besides, I may get to meet DF in a few months' time.

fate

Good point: so let's stop giving welfare to mothers who have children with men in prison!

And what happens to those children then?

fate

Here's another idea: don't break the law!
I know, I know--crazy, right? I mean who doesn't want to sling some dope?

Or are the laws stupid? Like third strike? Like drug laws?
Here's whats happened in Colorado.

According to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, the state saw an overall decrease of 1 percent in reported crimes for 2014. The state also saw an overall decrease of 2.5 percent in the crime rate per 100,000 people. Digging even deeper, Colorado experienced a 3.1 percent drop in property crimes and a 12.8 percent decrease in homicides.
In Denver, which is the hub of legal pot sales as well as the capital and the most populous city in the state, assaults, murders, burglaries, rapes, and other violent crimes also declined during the first three months of 2014 when compared with the same time period in 2013. Automobile break-ins went from 2,317 to 1,477, which represents a 36 percent decrease. Homicides went from 17 to 8, which is a 53 percent decrease, and sexual assaults went from 110 to 95 — a 14 percent drop.
Additionally, total burglaries in Denver went from 5,094 in 2013 to 4,594 in 2014, which is about a 10 percent drop. In 2013, there were 1,137 reported robberies in the city, yet in 2014 this dropped 3 percent to 1,099. Finally, licensed marijuana facilities in the city also saw a decrease in burglaries. In 2013, there were 147 burglaries reported in Denver. However, in 2014 there were 118 burglaries reported at licensed marijuana facilities.

Is it worth putting all kinds of young men in prison for drug possession or dealing when legalizing and regulating drugs both decreases crime and raises all kinds of tax revenue? $70 million in 2015.


fate

1. If someone is in prison, a woman should not try to conceive a child with him. That's just kind of, you know, common sense.

Lets consider the circumstance where the pregnancy occurred before the man was convicted of a crime. Perhaps the woman didn't have access to birth control, or they didn't work or they were planning to get married but .....
Young people, especially men, are often ruled by impulses. Providing free access to birth control and sex education would seem to be the cheapest solution to all the problems. And eliminating unwanted pregnancies would also eliminate abortion as a solution for women caught in an unplanned pregnancy. Something I know you'd like to see. Me too.

fate

Men should not be having children they can't or won't support

And yet they do.
Shall we punish the children for the crimes of their parents as well? Or shall we try to end the cycle of poverty with education, health care and targeted assistance?

fate

Problem solved. You're welcome.

Problem ignored.
With no solution offered.

Fate

"Incarceration" is a rubbish word. People are "incarcerated" for "breaking the law." Obey the law and you don't get "incarcerated."

Some laws are pretty stupid. Like drug possession and use. (See Colorado, Portugal, Switzerland for how things improve when you change those laws..)
Blacks are incarcerated (an excellent word) at a much higher rate than whites, for the same crimes

. About 14 million Whites and 2.6 million African Americans report using an illicit drug
5 times as many Whites are using drugs as African Americans, yet African Americans are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of Whites
African Americans represent 12% of the total population of drug users, but 38% of those arrested for drug offenses, and 59% of those in state prison for a drug offense.
African Americans serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense (58.7 months) as whites do for a violent offense (61.7 months). (Sentencing Project)

fate

Who is most likely to shoot and kill a black man?

A black man.
So regulate legal drugs, and there will be fewer dealers shooting each other and bystanders. (see 53% drop in homicides in Denver)
And make laws for gun ownership and licensed use, as onerous as car ownership/driving and you'll see a drop in the rate of gun deaths the same way car accident death rate decreased since the 60s.