Join In On The Action "Register Here" To View The Forums

Already a Member Login Here

Board index Forum Index
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 21062
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 31 Oct 2016, 2:43 pm

rickyp wrote:Fate
It's called "competition." You should look into it.

Where?

The basic problem is that there is no way for most consumers to shop for cheaper health care. Health care is not sold that way. It is not purchased that way. You don't say, I need an emergency appendectomy but lets go on Kajiji and shop around...
You can shop for insurance but insurance companies are stuck with the same problem that they have a hard time controlling suppliers costs... (And they have tried to actually shop their customer base from hospital to hospital).


By permitting insurance companies from other States to compete! I know, I know, for socialists "competition" is a dirty word, but it does work.

In every other nation doctors, and pharmeceuticals are treated like the monopolies they are and national health systems negotiate compensation levels.


And, you are welcome to your system--one in which Canadians have had to travel to the US to have babies. It's cool.

Just don't think we MUST have that. If you don't like our system, don't move here (really, don't)!

But maybe thats wrong Fate and you can explain where actual competition exists and where its proven to leaven price inflation...


See car insurance. See life insurance. See home insurance.

We are talking "insurance" after all.
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 15994
Joined: 15 Apr 2004, 6:29 am

Post 03 Nov 2016, 12:29 pm

Ray Jay wrote:Fate:
So, the GOP should bail out Obama


Perhaps they should bail out their fellow citizens who are suffering from this law.
What, and give up that political capital of saying "we told you so"?
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 21062
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 03 Nov 2016, 1:06 pm

danivon wrote:
Ray Jay wrote:Fate:
So, the GOP should bail out Obama


Perhaps they should bail out their fellow citizens who are suffering from this law.
What, and give up that political capital of saying "we told you so"?


Not really fair.

Keep in mind the following:

1. Not only did the Democrats pass this without a single GOP vote, they did so with great fanfare.
2. President Obama invited Paul Ryan to a press event, sat him right up front, and excoriated him re budget priorities.
3. Democrats have gone on and on about how wonderful the law is and how Republicans want everyone to die rather than have healthcare.

So, now that everything every conservative said about the law before it was passed has come true, the onus is on Republicans to be THE grown-ups, put all the partisan shenanigans the Democrats pulled behind them, and bail the Democrats out of political purgatory, even while "making better" a law they believe is FUNDAMENTALLY and fatally flawed?

Come on. That's just stupid.
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 15994
Joined: 15 Apr 2004, 6:29 am

Post 10 Nov 2016, 6:01 am

Doctor Fate wrote:
danivon wrote:
Ray Jay wrote:Fate:
So, the GOP should bail out Obama


Perhaps they should bail out their fellow citizens who are suffering from this law.
What, and give up that political capital of saying "we told you so"?


Not really fair.

Keep in mind the following:

1. Not only did the Democrats pass this without a single GOP vote, they did so with great fanfare.
2. President Obama invited Paul Ryan to a press event, sat him right up front, and excoriated him re budget priorities.
3. Democrats have gone on and on about how wonderful the law is and how Republicans want everyone to die rather than have healthcare.

So, now that everything every conservative said about the law before it was passed has come true, the onus is on Republicans to be THE grown-ups, put all the partisan shenanigans the Democrats pulled behind them, and bail the Democrats out of political purgatory, even while "making better" a law they believe is FUNDAMENTALLY and fatally flawed?

Come on. That's just stupid.
Some day, either one of the two parties grows up and acts like the adults, or your country will just continue to descend into bitter recriminations.

There isn't an onus on one particular party, except that whoever is in power has the opportunity to govern. For 2 years, Republicans run the show. They can take the high road, or not. Up to them, I guess.
User avatar
Administrator
 
Posts: 11284
Joined: 14 Feb 2000, 8:40 am

Post 10 Nov 2016, 6:45 am

Agreed and doing away with a bad law is both good for the country and good for the party. It does absolutely need to be replaced with something better and that is no easy task, there is no magic answer! And honestly, if I were a fan of single payer (and I may be) then scrapping this stupid Obamacare is actually a good first step toward that goal. If we want single payer, Obamacare had to be scrapped anyways and as it is, it only gets in the way if that is the goal. I spoke to some democrats here and they all think this was a first step to that end ...no, no, no, it only got in the way of that goal. This could be good for us all.

Obamacare was forced down our throats, the majority did not want it, the Democrats did so with great zeal, to expect the Republicans to not dismantle it with a bit of glee is just not going to happen. But it does need something to replace it, we can not go back where we were. Obamacare was put in place because the way things were was in bad need of repair as it was, lets see where this goes, I do hope it is done smartly and done without a heckuva lot of fanfare, just do your business and be done with it.
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 3646
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 10 Nov 2016, 9:54 am

Republicans cannot get rid of Obamacare because of the filibuster; what they can do is use reconciliation to get rid of certain aspects of the law like individual and employer mandates, Medicaid expansion and tax subsidies. But the caps on coverage would remain as would having to cover pre-existing conditions (I assume that the limits on charging older insured should apply as well).But insurance companies would go bankrupt and many people would be without coverage. That is politically not feasible unless the Republicans want to give the Senate and House back to the Democrats.

So you would have to have a replacement plan to fill in the gaps but how you could get this past filibuster? And of course Republicans aren't close to an agreement on a plan, anyway.

So, basically, it's impossible to get rid of even most parts of Obamacare unless Rrpublicans want to face a massive and continuing political hit.

I gotta to laugh at the irony--with regard to Obamacare it's almost better for a Republican to be president over the next four years.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/t ... isk-231090
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 21062
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 10 Nov 2016, 10:58 am

freeman3 wrote:Republicans cannot get rid of Obamacare because of the filibuster; what they can do is use reconciliation to get rid of certain aspects of the law like individual and employer mandates, Medicaid expansion and tax subsidies. But the caps on coverage would remain as would having to cover pre-existing conditions (I assume that the limits on charging older insured should apply as well).But insurance companies would go bankrupt and many people would be without coverage. That is politically not feasible unless the Republicans want to give the Senate and House back to the Democrats.

So you would have to have a replacement plan to fill in the gaps but how you could get this past filibuster? And of course Republicans aren't close to an agreement on a plan, anyway.

So, basically, it's impossible to get rid of even most parts of Obamacare unless Rrpublicans want to face a massive and continuing political hit.

I gotta to laugh at the irony--with regard to Obamacare it's almost better for a Republican to be president over the next four years.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/t ... isk-231090


Oh, you'll be eating crow on this one. Sorry, but Trump will give Democrats his son if it will result in Obamacare getting repealed. Remember: his spending projections were higher than Clinton's, so he won't be shy about horse-trading.

Further, those provision you mention--were they passed in regular order? If not, why can't they be changed in reconciliation? The whole law was passed that way and you'll have to explain to me why it can't be repealed that way.

I think Trump will do well on stuff like this. It's his trade policies that are bonkers--and his conduct (of course).
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 3646
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 10 Nov 2016, 11:37 am

I don't need to figure that out because Republicans already did a trial run last year of parts they could get rid of. So ask Paul Ryan.

As for Democrats horse-trading other things to get rid of the ACA, that's not going to happen. Any Democrat who voted for getting rid of Obamacare would have zero political future in the party. It would not be viable politically to do it.

Any horse-trading would have to be within changing certain things in the law to make it more Republican friendly.

If the Republicans don't want to do that they can learn to love the filibuster.
Last edited by freeman3 on 10 Nov 2016, 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Administrator
 
Posts: 11284
Joined: 14 Feb 2000, 8:40 am

Post 10 Nov 2016, 12:12 pm

I find it a bit funny how "this will never happen"
Let's go back a few years, things were exactly reversed, Obamacare was not liked by the majority of Americans yet the Democrats managed to get this through. Why were they able to do so then but not now? It was an unpopular law then and is unpopular now (should be easier to get a vote from the other side if it's unpopular???)

It may never be overturned, but you simply can not say it CAN'T happen either. If a new and better plan is brought to the table, you really think (if it is better mind you) that zero Democrats will not go along with a better plan? If you think your Democratic party should block a better idea, then I'm glad you are on the other side. Can something "better" be found? Maybe not! Can Obamacare simply be scrapped without a new plan? no chance. But it is at least possible.
User avatar
Administrator
 
Posts: 7373
Joined: 26 Jun 2000, 1:13 pm

Post 10 Nov 2016, 12:15 pm

freeman3 wrote:I don't need to figure that out because Republicans already did a trial run last year of parts they could get rid of. So ask Paul Ryan.

As for Democrats horse-trading other things to get rid of the ACA, that's not going to happen. Any Democrat who voted for Obamacare would have zero political future in the party. It would not be viable politically to do it.

Any horse-trading would have to be within changing certain things in the law to make it more Republican friendly.

If the Republicans don't want to do that they can learn to love the filibuster.


Remember when a certain Redscaper was railing against the use of the filibuster? Perhaps he has a different view now.

Speaking of which... Has anyone heard from RickyP? Is he still on the ledge?
User avatar
Administrator
 
Posts: 11284
Joined: 14 Feb 2000, 8:40 am

Post 10 Nov 2016, 1:27 pm

with all the Americans suddenly moving to Canada, he had to pack up and move to Moose Jaw where he has more room?
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 21062
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 10 Nov 2016, 5:44 pm

freeman3 wrote:I don't need to figure that out because Republicans already did a trial run last year of parts they could get rid of. So ask Paul Ryan.

As for Democrats horse-trading other things to get rid of the ACA, that's not going to happen. Any Democrat who voted for getting rid of Obamacare would have zero political future in the party. It would not be viable politically to do it.

Any horse-trading would have to be within changing certain things in the law to make it more Republican friendly.

If the Republicans don't want to do that they can learn to love the filibuster.


Or get rid of it. Reid suggested Democrats do it, so . . .

The ACA will be done away with. Deal with it.
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 21062
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 10 Nov 2016, 5:45 pm

bbauska wrote:
freeman3 wrote:I don't need to figure that out because Republicans already did a trial run last year of parts they could get rid of. So ask Paul Ryan.

As for Democrats horse-trading other things to get rid of the ACA, that's not going to happen. Any Democrat who voted for Obamacare would have zero political future in the party. It would not be viable politically to do it.

Any horse-trading would have to be within changing certain things in the law to make it more Republican friendly.

If the Republicans don't want to do that they can learn to love the filibuster.


Remember when a certain Redscaper was railing against the use of the filibuster? Perhaps he has a different view now.

Speaking of which... Has anyone heard from RickyP? Is he still on the ledge?


He's still counting up the money he made betting on Clinton.