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Post 08 Aug 2016, 5:14 pm

freeman3 wrote:Ideas were central to the collapse of the Soviet Union. The economic problems were not that serious.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/06/20/eve ... -is-wrong/


Indeed, the Soviet Union in 1985 possessed much of the same natural and human resources that it had 10 years before. Certainly, the standard of living was much lower than in most of Eastern Europe, let alone the West. Shortages, food rationing, long lines in stores, and acute poverty were endemic. But the Soviet Union had known far greater calamities and coped without sacrificing an iota of the state’s grip on society and economy, much less surrendering it.


Sure. Good times.
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Post 08 Aug 2016, 5:40 pm

All of that was not a problem but when vodka supplies ran low...revolution!
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Post 09 Aug 2016, 1:15 pm

Doctor Fate wrote:
danivon wrote:
freeman3 wrote:The hearts and mind thing is already taken care of. The enormous flow of information in the modern world flow via the internet and other media is subversive. Muslims all over the world are exposed to Western values of individual rights and freedoms, economic opportunities, and a vast array of consumer goods. Ultimately,Western values are subversive of other systems that limit the opportunities of their people. Perhaps even the root cause of Muslim terrorism is that the West through its attractive set of values threatens Muslim states which constrain their people--particularly women, but not only women--from individual development. We just need to stay the course, secure possible targets,endeavor to keep nuclear weapons out of dangerous hands, strike those who are seeking to hurt us to show that we are stronger, and let the steady flow of information show we have a better way.

Which is kind of what happened to the Soviet Bloc - eventually people were able to see that not only was the West materially better off, but that it was also freer, and then veil was lifted.


Would you say information flow was more responsible than the economic collapse of the USSR? (No sarcasm intended)
I think people could tolerate a certain level of economic hardship until it became clear that over the Iron Curtain people were a lot better off.

I understand the argument that information will tear down this wall, as it were. However, some of these groups, many of them, go to extremes to live like it's the 12th Century with AK-47's and Toyota pick-ups. That's the Taliban in a nutshell.
Maybe they do, but the bulk of people in the same countries may not see it quite the same way.

Furthermore, the people oppressed under the Soviets had no eschatological investment in the communist system. Those living under the threat of Islamic extremism share the same (or similar) future expectations. In my opinion, that is a significant difference.
The state ideology of the USSR and satellites may not have been as concerned with the soul, but that does not mean it did not have a quasi-religious fervour associated with it.
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Post 09 Aug 2016, 1:59 pm

danivon wrote:The state ideology of the USSR and satellites may not have been as concerned with the soul, but that does not mean it did not have a quasi-religious fervour associated with it.


In my opinion, that's not a comparable notion. Quasi-religious fervour is not the same as sharing the religion. Islamists and run-of-the-mill Muslims have more in common than a Soviet purist and some schlub on the streets of the USSR.