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Post 15 Jul 2016, 2:56 pm

Is anyone following this developing story? Have the secularists finally had enough of Erdogan's push to the far right? Or is this Gulen's doing?
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Post 16 Jul 2016, 8:33 am

From what I've heard, the coup "plot" had everything but a sign for free bird seed. It failed pretty quickly. Participating soldiers are now under arrest.
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Post 16 Jul 2016, 9:02 am

JimHackerMP wrote:From what I've heard, the coup "plot" had everything but a sign for free bird seed. It failed pretty quickly. Participating soldiers are now under arrest.


:grin: :grin: :grin:
Great imagery...
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Post 18 Jul 2016, 12:36 pm

I don't think that Gulen had anything to do with it.

Erdogan's reaction will be excessive as he uses this as an excuse to punish all enemies including judges, politicians, etc. More dark times ahead.
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Post 18 Jul 2016, 1:11 pm

I see more problems ahead as well. Of course Erdogan will use an iron fist. Entry to the EU is already playing a part in this unfolding story.

But a story line I have not yet heard
What to do with Gulen?

He is in the USA, he is not a citizen as far as I am aware he is simply in exile (self imposed)
He seems to be a good ally to the west in his moderate views, we want more guys like this.
But what if he did have something to do with the coup-gone-bad? I can't see how the US can keep him from a fellow NATO Ally if that is indeed the case. It can get real ugly between the US and Turkey and in turn between the "west" and the "Mid East" that Turkey is already precariously teetering between!
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Post 18 Jul 2016, 1:44 pm

GMTom:
But what if he did have something to do with the coup-gone-bad?

Have you seen any evidence whatsoever that this is the case?
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Post 18 Jul 2016, 1:54 pm

In regard to Fethullah Gulen Tom said:

we want more guys like this


Tom, not at all. On the contrary, this kook is nuttier than Erdogan. He has diligently worked to move Turkey away from secularism. Attaturk went too far in his estimation. Read up on him and I promise you will change your mind about him. He is absolutely hated by western Turks. Erdogan was his pupil until just a few years ago. They had a falling out over what I'm not sure.

My guess is Gulen believed his reach to be far greater than it was. Though he denies it, there are western Turks who claim he was behind it, posing as Turkey's great liberator and desiring to return triumphantly to Turkey once Erdogan was eliminated (a plot that apparently failed as part of the coup).

For the sake of democracy, we do not want Erdogan or Gulen at the helm.
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 6:05 am

Dag
My guess is Gulen believed his reach to be far greater than it was. Though he denies it, there are western Turks who claim he was behind it, posing as Turkey's great liberator and desiring to return triumphantly to Turkey once Erdogan was eliminated (a plot that apparently failed as part of the coup).

For the sake of democracy


Democracy is also about the rule of law. It's not about guesses, conjecture, and what some Turks claim. Erdogan is ready to arrest the guy (and maybe hang the guy as he apparently believe that the death penalty can be reinstated retroactively) without producing any evidence. He's also accusing members of the judiciary of being part of the coup. The U.S. is being asked to surrender Gulen because of Turkey's military power, especially as it relates to the war against ISIS. Let's follow principle that you are innocent unless there is evidence that says otherwise.
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 8:22 am

I don't know much about this guy (Gulen) other than what I quickly read up on. He is somewhat moderate and that's a good thing in that area of the world.
But whether he's crazy or not...

I said "what if" he has something to do with this. I have no evidence nor am I suggesting he did or did not, it's just a what if, nothing more.

And even then,
An ally wants to bring him to trial, it's up to Turkey to find the facts and not the US. How can we keep him safe in America if an ally wants to try him? We can't say anything about the death penalty when we have it ourselves. Frankly, if Turkey wants him, then we have a duty to send him back and let Turkey decide his fate. America can't (in my opinion) decide anything in this matter, it's none of our business and he is a Turkish citizen.
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 9:30 am

GMTom wrote:I don't know much about this guy (Gulen) other than what I quickly read up on. He is somewhat moderate and that's a good thing in that area of the world.
But whether he's crazy or not...

I said "what if" he has something to do with this. I have no evidence nor am I suggesting he did or did not, it's just a what if, nothing more.

And even then,
An ally wants to bring him to trial, it's up to Turkey to find the facts and not the US. How can we keep him safe in America if an ally wants to try him? We can't say anything about the death penalty when we have it ourselves. Frankly, if Turkey wants him, then we have a duty to send him back and let Turkey decide his fate. America can't (in my opinion) decide anything in this matter, it's none of our business and he is a Turkish citizen.


Tom, noted that you said "what if".

I don't know about extraditing him. Although a military ally, Turkey does not share our broad democratic values, including rule of law, freedom of speech, independent judiciary, etc. People in the press are imprisoned. Same goes for members of the judiciary. Social media is severely limited. I personally don't have a problem with the death penalty, but retroactivity is a whole different matter.

As a matter of general principles, I've now learned that the rules on extradition are very complicated so this will take time to sort out. Here's a decent write up.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/18/opinions/ ... -cevallos/
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 9:44 am

Question though - if Erdogan does hold out the support for attacking ISIS, which is the worst evil?
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 10:12 am

danivon wrote:Question though - if Erdogan does hold out the support for attacking ISIS, which is the worst evil?


It's a good question, but openly giving up an innocent man to appease a blood thirsty ruler is incredibly cynical even in these times.
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 10:26 am

All I know is what one secular Turkish family after the next told me about the guy over the course of a month of living there. Granted, these families were west coast Turks and secularists through and through.

Gulen is NOT the secularist that he is being portrayed as. On the contrary, his ultimate dream is to end Turkey's legacy as a secular country. This is Erdogan's goal as well. Somewhere along the lines the two of them had a falling out. Over what I don't know.

I've scratched my head for 7 years on why this man is allowed to live here. Why he is allowed an armed guard on his property? The families I lived with swore it was because the US felt it better to keep him close so they could keep an eye on him than afar.

Gulen is a multi-billionaire I was told. He has fundamentalistic communities all over the world and is an extremely influential person. Some say he was a primary funder of the Muslim Brotherhood and the Arab Spring. I've got no proof of this but west coast secular Turks are sure of it.

I've written about Gulen before here but no one took any notice. I should look up what I posted ages ago and see if I can find whatever it was.

What's amazing is to hear the media suddenly paying attention to him and characterizing him incorrectly as a secularist.
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Post 26 Jul 2016, 8:22 am

https://twitter.com/WashingtonPoint/sta ... wsrc%5Etfw

This is an interesting development. Just conjecture at this point of course, and it could easily prove to be a load of old bollocks,but still... There's been a lot of very good investigative journalism coming out of Germany of late.
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Post 26 Jul 2016, 9:13 am

If it turns out that there is any truth to this claim, I won't be surprised at all. But whether that be the case or not, Turkey is now primed for a return to sharia thanks to Erdogan.