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Statesman
 
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Post 21 Sep 2017, 8:09 am

dag
I couldn't find the St. Louis Business Journal that first broke the story about Soros backing Ferguson protesters but this should suffice

I read all your links before.
How tenuous is the link that the Washington Times makes
Here's what they wrote...
In all, Mr. Soros gave at least $33 million in one year to support already-established groups that emboldened the grass-roots, on-the-ground activists in Ferguson, according to the most recent tax filings of his nonprofit Open Society Foundations.
The financial tether from Mr. Soros to the activist groups gave rise to a combustible protest movement that transformed a one-day criminal event in Missouri into a 24-hour-a-day national cause celebre.

This is crap.
Soros has been giving money to progressive groups since long before the Trump’s election. In 2017, some of them decided to participate in protests. That doesn't mean that he's responsible for the violent actions. Those who committed violent acts did so of their own volition. What you seem to be saying is that protestors were actually paid to commit violent acts. But there is no evidence offed. Just tenuous linkage. And a head line that isn't supported by the editorial beneath it...
This kind of tenuous linkage and smearing is typical of Brietbart and the Washington Times.. It doesn't begin to rise to any level of credible journalism...
Its "Lets blame the Jew billionare who wants to enslave us..."

Whats wrong with Soros contributing to political causes Dag?
.
. Soros' choice to put his wealth toward political causes that he believes in is not particularly different from the billions of dollars that right-wing billionaires like Charles and David Koch have been donating to Republican causes for years, said Miami University professor Timothy Melley. The difference is that far more ultra-rich Americans are politically conservative.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-did- ... ght-2017-5

Where's your evidence that his contributions are specifically intended to pay for violent acts?

dag

My guess is you doubt my claim or think I'm making it up.

I think you must uncritically read bizarre news sources that offer BS journalism like the Washington Times.
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Post 21 Sep 2017, 8:20 am

Fate
Um, those aren't just random folks, but leaders of BLM. You can blather all you want, but that's what the movement is about--radicalism

BS.
Yusra Khogali IS just some random person you found quoted in a couple of web sites from last February. She isn't represented in any official communications from the Toronto Chapter of BLM and the recognized steering committee has refused to comment on her personal views...
Try and find any mention of her since last February ...
She doesn't represent BLM Toronto. Her chery picked quote was just convenient to your preconcieved notion.

Meanwhile there are actual results from BLM, at least in Toronto. (Hopefully in US cities too.)

And yet policing reforms are underway. A report from the Toronto Police Service’s transformational task force, released in late January, announced plans for a “culture change.” The recommendations include shifting to a collaborative, community-based model—the return of the neighbourhood beat cop. Saunders has explained that part of the system change would involve acknowledging bias, which is as close as the city’s first black police chief has come to publicly recognizing racism in policing. Ostensibly, BLMTO achieved its biggest victory last year, when Ontario announced new provincial regulations meant to reform carding. But BLMTO doesn’t believe the reforms go far enough. They want the practice completely banned and data collected through carding destroyed. Police say that the data is tied up in lawsuits and must be preserved.

https://torontolife.com/city/toronto-po ... bel-rebel/
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Post 21 Sep 2017, 9:31 am

Like I said, blather all you want. The fact is BLM is a violent, even revolutionary, group.

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/black-liv ... 5456067512

http://www.npr.org/2016/07/11/485593473 ... in-st-paul

FLORIDO: Some in the crowd threw rocks and fireworks at police. Officers responded with smoke canisters and pepper spray. The St. Paul Police Department said 21 of its officers were hurt, including one who had a brick dropped on him from an overpass. Speaking to Minnesota Public Radio, Mayor Chris Coleman called what happened a riot.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

CHRIS COLEMAN: Up to the point where people were peaceful - up to the point where they were sitting on the freeway, they may have been unlawfully assembling, but they weren't rioting. The minute that brick was thrown, the minute the fireworks were thrown towards the police officer, that's riot.

FLORIDO: On the same station, local Black Lives Matter leader Lena Gardner denounced the violence, which she blames on outsiders and anarchists.

LENA GARDNER: Black Lives Matter in Minneapolis has been and always will be committed to nonviolent protest. We've taken that position from the get-go and we have never wavered from it. And we don't know.

FLORIDO: The group has asked for donations to cover the legal fees of arrested protesters. The violence both here and in other cities, including Dallas, where five police officers were killed during a march last week, has complicated the Black Lives Matter movement's effort to gain momentum after the deaths of Castile and Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge.


Of course BLM wasn't violent!

Wait, what? Blocking the freeway isn't violent?

Sorry, but in my world when people are blocking the road, that's dangerous. I don't know what their intentions are and they don't know what my needs are. That's a dangerous combination.

The same week Sterling and Castile were killed, a gunman killed five police officers at a Black Lives Matter rally in Dallas.
Their killer was an Afghanistan war veteran, 25-year-old Micah Xavier Johnson from the Dallas suburb of Mesquite, Texas.
Johnson was plotting larger attacks, Dallas Police Chief David Brown said in an interview with CNN's Jake Tapper on "State of the Union" Sunday.
He said police found bomb-making materials and a journal at the shooter's home that suggested he'd been practicing detonations and appeared ready to take aim at larger targets.
Three other shootings, in Tennessee, Missouri and Georgia, have endangered police during rallies.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/10/us/black- ... index.html

You can believe what you want to believe, but I don't have to live like a refugee.
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Post 26 Sep 2017, 4:14 pm

Rickyp asked:

You have contrasted the St. Louis event with King's marches?


Absolutely. Why wouldn't I do so? Better, why wouldn't a movement such as BLM consult their own history? Why not turn to the very best and study why his approached worked, why it garnered support from halfway around the world, why it inspired similar movements in other countries, why it juxtaposed the ugliness of racism with the strength of pacifism? and why it succeeded in spite of such incredible odds? The fact that you're incapable of grasping this points to what's at the heart of the racial division in our country at the moment.

BLM has no leadership and is consequently disorganized. There is no strategy. Because there is no strategy, there is a clear lack of intelligence on how to go about achieving objectives. What's worse, there is a complete lack of appreciation for allies in the "struggle."

BLM has ironically and pathetically succeeded in alienating themselves from those who would otherwise sympathize with their cause.

And dig a little deeper on your buddy Soros. Try not to trust the in depth reporting of the Yahoo front page in the future.
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Post 27 Sep 2017, 6:55 am

dag
Absolutely. Why wouldn't I do so? Better, why wouldn't a movement such as BLM consult their own history? Why not turn to the very best and study why his approached worked, why it garnered support from halfway around the world, why it inspired similar movements in other countries, why it juxtaposed the ugliness of racism with the strength of pacifism? and why it succeeded in spite of such incredible odds? The fact that you're incapable of grasping this points to what's at the heart of the racial division in our country at the moment.


Well, my point was that Selma was a well organized event. An event that took months to plan and organize. Not just an emotional reaction on the spur of the moment.

But okay.I agree looking at the past is helpful, and instructive.
If you want to compare, maybe you should compare the level of support for the civil rights movement and for the civil rights protests at the time... Very low when measured in Gallop polls.
King himself had a negative image across most of the US. (same polls)
A sign of the times, in 1963, a Gallup poll found that 78% of white people would leave their neighborhood if many black families moved in. When it comes to MLK’s march on Washington, 60% had an unfavorable view of the march, stating that they felt it would cause violence and would not accomplish anything
.
https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/public- ... t-of-1964/

If BLM were to learn from their history, they would learn that they will be reviled by the vast majority for a time.Then, the righteousness of their position and their tenacity will persuade some....and eventually most.
King was hated by most of White America in the early 60s. Today he is celebrated in a national holiday.

If you want to understand how it is the tipping point was arrived at, look at it from what was written at the time. Most of the press in the 50s was as critical of freedom riders and in the 60's of Kings marchers as you are now of BLM.
And there was a radical fringe to the civil rights movement in the 60's just as some of the BLM movement have some radical components.
The aim of BLM is "equal treatment under the law', throughout the justice system.Tat is the whole system: Enforcement, the judicial system and the prison system.
Its really just an extension of what King was attempting to achieve. I think BLM actually has more support than King did in 62 ... And I'm pretty sure they'll continue to garner support .... because they have the history of King to look back and learn from...
And perhaps even soon they will reach the tipping point that will lead to genuine reforms that help achieve their goal.
Do you think their goal is worthy?
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Post 27 Sep 2017, 7:16 am

rickyp wrote:If BLM were to learn from their history, they would learn that they will be reviled by the vast majority for a time.Then, the righteousness of their position and their tenacity will persuade some....and eventually most.
King was hated by most of White America in the early 60s. Today he is celebrated in a national holiday.


Anarchy is not righteous.

BLM is violent extremism against order.
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Post 27 Sep 2017, 12:01 pm

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr may not have initially been popular with whites but in a very short while, and due to his use of tactics and strategy, including photography and video juxtaposing non violence with violence, he turned that tide.

There's a great story behind this photo. The strategists bent over backwards to get it. They did the same for the fire hoses. They knew the power of images and the power of juxtaposing.

Image

Great article here on MLK tactics... https://www.commondreams.org/views05/0111-20.htm

From the article...

We often remember King for civil disobedience, but civil disobedience involved relatively small numbers of activists. King never required participants in the movement to break the law. Boycotts and demonstrations enabled millions of people to participate in the broader movement for empowerment. It was the combination of many kinds of non-cooperation that made King's strategy effective.


Contrast this noble effort with BLM and you are comparing apples to oranges. BLM will never be looked upon as successful. Not now, not ever. Why?

One word..

...violence.
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Post 27 Sep 2017, 4:55 pm

dag
Contrast this noble effort with BLM and you are comparing apples to oranges. BLM will never be looked upon as successful. Not now, not ever. Why.
Violence


Where's your evidence that it is violent? Isolated incidents that you refer to anecdotally ? or do you have any studies or statistical analysis? I'm willing to be convinced.
White supremacists are much more likely to commit violent crimes than other sub-groups or classifications of domestic extremism. According to the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), in 2015, white supremacists accounted for 38 percent of all extremist killings, followed closely by Islamist, anti-government, and anti-abortion extremists. Left-wing extremism accounted for around 1 percent of all killings; so-called “black extremism” did not register.
“Typically, white supremacists make up the vast majority of non‐ideological perpetrators, as white supremacists engage in a large amount of gang‐related and traditional criminal violent activity in addition to their hate‐ or ideologically‐motivated violence,” the ADL reported, explaining the numbers. Those groups were often also visibly associated with white supremacist groups—tattoos and insignia on their clothing during the crime often identified them straight off the bat.
By comparison, the number of violent crimes committed by those aligned with civil rights activism is virtually non-existent

https://thinkprogress.org/there-is-no-c ... fb222ed38/

According to Fate, "Blocking the freeway" is violent. I guess then that walking across the bridge at Selma was violent too. How dare they block that thoroughfare!!!

We'll see where BLM ends up. Or better the issue that they are fighting for ... equal treatment for all by law enforcement the courts and the prison system...
If there is genuine buy in and action by those who make the laws, and enforce the laws ... then BLM will have succeeded.
As a famous South African said, "Its always impossible till it happens. " That was a man who was also painted as a violent criminal...
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Post 27 Sep 2017, 5:30 pm

rickyp wrote:According to Fate, "Blocking the freeway" is violent. I guess then that walking across the bridge at Selma was violent too. How dare they block that thoroughfare!!!.


Are you insane?

You're cruising to work. All of the sudden, the freeway's blocked. You can't get in. This is okay?

You're en route to the hospital. The ambulance stops. BLM protest. You can't get through. This is fine?

You're a moron.

Someone is going to get killed--either dragged out of their car or run over. When that happens, what will you say?

We'll see where BLM ends up. Or better the issue that they are fighting for ... equal treatment for all by law enforcement the courts and the prison system...


They're fighting for anarchy. Empty the prisons. Don't arrest people. If that's the world you want, move to CA. They're building that world.

If there is genuine buy in and action by those who make the laws, and enforce the laws ... then BLM will have succeeded.
As a famous South African said, "Its always impossible till it happens. " That was a man who was also painted as a violent criminal..


They won't succeed. Violence by a sliver of the population hurts for a while, then the rest of the people get angry.
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Post 28 Sep 2017, 10:31 am

Rickyp wrote:

Where's your evidence that it is violent?


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this question is not an attempt to wind me up.

I've seen the violence of BLM with my own eyes in Ferguson, in Clayton and the Delmar Loop.
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Post 28 Sep 2017, 2:42 pm

dag
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this question is not an attempt to wind me up.

I've seen the violence of BLM with my own eyes in Ferguson, in Clayton and the Delmar Loop


Sure and we all know how reliable eye witness accounts always are....
I'm entirely serious. I offered you a study from the Anti Defamation League...Do you have anything besides your own reactions to what you saw? I'm not discounting your reaction to what you saw.... just that it isn't really evidence its your uncorroborated eye witness testimony...

An aside; its surprising to me how poor information on criminal activity and police activity is in the US. That there isn't a central database on police shootings for instance. And that crimes are reported differently across the jurisdictions.
It makes it particularly hard to agree on policy when the facts are unknown or entirely malleable.

Fate
Are you insane?

My goodness you are clutching your pearls aren't you ?
Here's what happened... Not quite the picture you paint.

http://fox2now.com/2016/07/16/black-liv ... -st-louis/
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Post 28 Sep 2017, 3:15 pm

rickyp wrote:dag
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this question is not an attempt to wind me up.

I've seen the violence of BLM with my own eyes in Ferguson, in Clayton and the Delmar Loop


Sure and we all know how reliable eye witness accounts always are....
I'm entirely serious. I offered you a study from the Anti Defamation League...Do you have anything besides your own reactions to what you saw? I'm not discounting your reaction to what you saw.... just that it isn't really evidence its your uncorroborated eye witness testimony...

An aside; its surprising to me how poor information on criminal activity and police activity is in the US. That there isn't a central database on police shootings for instance. And that crimes are reported differently across the jurisdictions.
It makes it particularly hard to agree on policy when the facts are unknown or entirely malleable.

Fate
Are you insane?

My goodness you are clutching your pearls aren't you ?
Here's what happened... Not quite the picture you paint.

http://fox2now.com/2016/07/16/black-liv ... -st-louis/


You're showing your ignorance. That's not the ONLY freeway that has been blocked. It's happened multiple times, including in Boston.

The clock's ticking. If they keep it up, someone is going to get seriously hurt or killed.

I get it. Human life doesn't concern you.

I have a higher opinion.
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Post 28 Sep 2017, 6:22 pm

Theatre of the Absurd Presents...Twelve Tangos with Rickyp

Bystander - Why are those protesters throwing a park bench through Natalie's bakery?

Sophist - How do you know they're angry?

Bystander - Well, they're shouting slogans such as, "no justice, no peace, no profit, no peace." Some are facing off with police officers and screaming horrible racial slurs laced with foul language and threats to their safety, not to mention insults 3 and 4 inches away from their faces while they look on. And still others are starting fires inside 7-11.

Sophist - are you sure they are part of the BLM movement and not some other fragment of malcontents?

Bystander - Well the guys who set the fire had BLM headbands and armbands and the ones screaming at the police were carrying BLM posters. Others who earlier were chanting anti police slogans turned a police car over and then set it on fire. That doesn't strike me as typical behavior of someone not angry.

Sophist - What is anger exactly?

Bystander - I suppose anger is that emotion that excites a person to sometimes take actions that are harmful to others in some way.

Sophist - Couldn't anger simply be a well played act being played out for effect in order to obtain a desired objective?

Bystander - You mean like something an actor might do on stage or film?

Sophist - Precisely.

Bystander - I've not thought of that possibility. When the men and women who blocked the streets were banging their fists on the hoods of cars passing by, I guess I assumed they were serious. I know the occupants of those in the cars took them seriously. I judged this based on the volume of their voices and cross looks on their faces. All that coupled with their actions of course.

Sophist - I must ask you as well if you really saw what you thought you saw?

Bystander - Whowhatwherebretweir?

Sophist - What I mean is, are you certain you were there? And if the odds are you were in fact "there" what did "there" look and feel like at the time? Did you arrive with preconceived ideas about what was happening?

Bystander - is medical marijuana legal in your community?
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Post 28 Sep 2017, 7:56 pm

^ 4 thumbs up, or five stars, or whatever the highest possible rating is.
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Post 29 Sep 2017, 3:49 pm

So Dag, your response to this was cute.
Do you have anything besides your own reactions to what you saw? I'm not discounting your reaction to what you saw.... just that it isn't really evidence its your uncorroborated eye witness testimony.
..
But I guess it means you got nothing that you can point to that corroborates what you think you saw?