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Post 07 Jul 2016, 8:37 pm

It's getting ugly folks..

A full blown war has been declared between these two groups. The premise is simple, when some cop kills a black person, the radical wing of the so called Black Lives Matter movement will kill a cop to even the score.

This will continue to be the new emerging pattern unless something drastic takes place to change the way police in America are trained.
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Post 08 Jul 2016, 12:10 am

dag hammarsjkold wrote:It's getting ugly folks..

A full blown war has been declared between these two groups. The premise is simple, when some cop kills a black person, the radical wing of the so called Black Lives Matter movement will kill a cop to even the score.

This will continue to be the new emerging pattern unless something drastic takes place to change the way police in America are trained.

Well, looks like an individual rather than "the radical wing" of any protest group. Perhaps you should wait until more information comes out from Dallas before declaring what happened.

But the two recent high profile cases - particularly the one where a guy was killed in front of his family in the car - again seem to show use of lethal force by police when not necessarily required.

Killing cops in retaliation is not going to help anyone. But the authorities need to hold the police to account for their actions.
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Post 08 Jul 2016, 8:32 am

It appears that there were more than one. There are three in custody that aren't talking. They have not been charged yet. Perhaps not the individual shooting that was initially stated.
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Post 08 Jul 2016, 10:26 am

bbauska wrote:It appears that there were more than one. There are three in custody that aren't talking. They have not been charged yet. Perhaps not the individual shooting that was initially stated.

Maybe not, but it is very common to have reports of multiple shooters when it was really only one, because of the confusion, echoes and any return of fire. You also get a lot of false stories in the media.

But it could be more than one person, we should not (as Dag appears to have done), leap to conclusions during the event.

Texas being open carry, some of the protesters were armed, legally, and one guy at least went from being a prime suspect to being released last night.
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Post 08 Jul 2016, 5:30 pm

While I "wait for more information to come out of Dallas", a police officer was ambushed this afternoon in St. Louis, shot in the neck on a routine traffic stop. He's fighting for his life. Another cop was shot today in Georgia. I'm reading he is going to make it. Both cops were white. And this not even 24 hours after the Dallas massacre.
Last edited by dag hammarsjkold on 08 Jul 2016, 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post 08 Jul 2016, 5:52 pm

Curious Danivon,

Do you suppose the Black Lives Matter chants calling for the killing of police, or "pigs in a blanket" to be more exact, are simply cavalier crowd pleasers with no effect on its membership?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xNxoeqf0Ws

Any connection in your estimation Danivon? Any chance this kind of vitriol may motivate someone within their rank and file to take up arms against white police?

I'll keep waiting for more evidence.
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Post 09 Jul 2016, 1:29 am

Dag, of course incitement is wrong. The febrile atmosphere of US politics has been a concern for a long time.

We do indeed need to wait for more information. It now seems that there was just one shooter in Dallas. The other incidents I know less about - are they copycats, or just a function of general violence?
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Post 14 Jul 2016, 1:17 am

I was watching tv and there was some discussion group on CNN trying to figure out a way to improve relations between police and the black community. The question is why here and why now? Why is it in a time of historically low incidences of violent crime that we are having so many black men shot? I came up with some possible answers: (1) random variation, shootings have spiked due to random fluctuation, (2) black men have for some reason gotten more confrontational with police, (3) more poorly trained police on the street leading to more shootings, and (4) we have always had these kinds of shootings but we keep better track of them and cell phones record them more often. I don't find of any of these possible answers very likely. So I'll propose another possibility--the election of Obama stirred up racial feelings in the larger culture resulting in police officers using more deadly force because of either: (1) a heightened fear response causing them to use deadly force in situations where they either should not use deadly force or even if it was within their discretion they would not have done so previously, or (2) devaluing of black life leading to more use of deadly force against black men than before.

It's clear that racial tension has risen between whites and blacks as a result of Obama's election. But did Obama's election cause police shootings of black men to escalate or it is just a matter of perception or is it some other reason?
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Post 14 Jul 2016, 7:14 am

freeman3 wrote:I was watching tv and there was some discussion group on CNN trying to figure out a way to improve relations between police and the black community. The question is why here and why now? Why is it in a time of historically low incidences of violent crime that we are having so many black men shot? I came up with some possible answers: (1) random variation, shootings have spiked due to random fluctuation, (2) black men have for some reason gotten more confrontational with police, (3) more poorly trained police on the street leading to more shootings, and (4) we have always had these kinds of shootings but we keep better track of them and cell phones record them more often. I don't find of any of these possible answers very likely. So I'll propose another possibility--the election of Obama stirred up racial feelings in the larger culture resulting in police officers using more deadly force because of either: (1) a heightened fear response causing them to use deadly force in situations where they either should not use deadly force or even if it was within their discretion they would not have done so previously, or (2) devaluing of black life leading to more use of deadly force against black men than before.

It's clear that racial tension has risen between whites and blacks as a result of Obama's election. But did Obama's election cause police shootings of black men to escalate or it is just a matter of perception or is it some other reason?


Are shootings of black men by police up?

Please prove your premise.
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Post 14 Jul 2016, 7:45 am

The Guardian started keeping track of people killed by police since 2015. Before that there was no official records kept. So there's no way to know, so it could be that for whatever reason that the issue has become a big deal. But I guess I shouldn't speculate that the issue has gotten worse and that is why we are noticing it without hard data.
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Post 16 Jul 2016, 9:08 pm

I wonder if George Soros is able to get good sleep at nights these days?

He sits in the background and lays in the weeds and yet he is directly responsible for these posers who show up at rally after rally in city after city inciting violence. The man should be ashamed of himself. Every family who recently lost a loved one on the police force in Dallas, St. Louis and Georgia deserves an apology from this @#$!.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/14/george-soros-funds-ferguson-protests-hopes-to-spur/
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Post 17 Jul 2016, 2:47 am

freeman3 wrote:The Guardian started keeping track of people killed by police since 2015. Before that there was no official records kept. So there's no way to know, so it could be that for whatever reason that the issue has become a big deal. But I guess I shouldn't speculate that the issue has gotten worse and that is why we are noticing it without hard data.

I think in the age of camera phones, those incidents where video has come out mean it is harder to avoid.

But I do find it shocking, and perhaps it is symptomatic of the underlying issues, that there is no official measurement of people killed by the police. If another government agency was killing people, there would be some questions, at least?
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Post 17 Jul 2016, 4:21 am

danivon wrote:But I do find it shocking, and perhaps it is symptomatic of the underlying issues, that there is no official measurement of people killed by the police.


There is. In every death certificate the cause of death is noted. If the cause of death is killed by cops, it will read "legal intervention." And these stats are tallied, by race, by age, for example:

http://harvardpublichealthreview.org/190/
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Post 17 Jul 2016, 8:41 am

Whoa, George. I understand that Harvard researchers went back and tried to look at records and analyze them, but I would not classify that as being official records. Even now, when there are entities trying to count the number of people killed there are at least three different estimates for the number of people killed in 2015--Washington Post says 975, The Guardian says 1125 and police killed.net has it at 1186. I think we can be fairly certain that at least 1,000 killed were killed by police in 2015. Harvard researchers found 15,769 men who died to legal intervention from 1960-2010. That's about 315 people per year. Granted the population went up but I find hard to believe that15769 is an accurate tally of bring killed by police from 1960-2010 given that 1,000 people were killed in 2015. I would say it underestimates it by quite a bit. There is no way to know how many people killed by police from 1960-2010 were not classified as due to legal intervention. The Harvard study is relying completely on death records having the correct classification. And these records are kept by every county in the US over 50 years with perhaps different ways of classifying things and also perhaps with a motivation to under-report police caused deaths.

I think the Harvard study was a good one and gives some evidence of police caused deaths from 1960-2010 but it's not definitive. I doubt we will never know to any degree of certainty how many were killed by police in the last 50 years.
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Post 17 Jul 2016, 8:53 am

geojanes wrote:
danivon wrote:But I do find it shocking, and perhaps it is symptomatic of the underlying issues, that there is no official measurement of people killed by the police.


There is. In every death certificate the cause of death is noted. If the cause of death is killed by cops, it will read "legal intervention." And these stats are tallied, by race, by age, for example:

http://harvardpublichealthreview.org/190/

OK, is that going to be accurate? Would it include other causes (eg a death sentence, death at the hands of PO's in prison/jail, etc) and could it exclude some others - eg, "suicide by cop"?

It does look like the rate has fallen since the late 60s/early 70s, and seems to be levelling off (rate per 100,000 falling may still mean the absolute number is not falling though).

A good test, I suppose would be if the numbers match across measures.