Fate

Further, I don't believe we have any way of measuring how much illegal immigration suppresses wages for those on the lower rungs of the employment ladder.

I think we do. We could look at wages in industries dominated by illegal workers in the US over time. The meart packing industry has seen wages plummet due to the employment of "undocumented workers".
The culprit here is not the illegal immigrants. Its employers who would rather employ them then ensure that they are documented.
The fight against enforcement regulations like e-verify was lead by the US Chamber of Commerce and the American Farm Bureau Federation. As well as the American Civil Liberties Union. And regularly wasundermined by Congress. Currently Ryan won't allow a vote on a bill that would mandate everify for all employers.
I'm certain that you are right and the value of labour was degraded by companies who gave jobs to undocumented, or poorly documented workers, knowing they were probably illegal.
Thats not the illegals fault. They were "Given" jobs.
I think this is also a small contributor to inequality.

fate

US law can crush the British economy. Sad times for the UK.

Sad times for the global economy. The crash of 08 was centred on US banking.
If Glass Steagall had not been repealed, along with dozens of other regulations beginning around 1979, the crash would not have happened. You do remember this?

The policies that dug the world out of the recession tended to enrich the .1% at the very top disproportionaly. Mainly because, the cheap money financial instituions were given access to was mostly invested back into financial products.
The only spending in the real economy was by govnerments building infrastructure.

sass

Not so great for those who work in manual trades, who have seen years and years of wage suppression brought about by so many tradesmen coming over from Eastern Europe who are willing to work for much less than they do

I get all this Sass. And I agree that uncontrolled immigration has harmed some people. Mostly through wage suppression.... But its also true that many nations were going the way of Japan with an aging population. Immigrants were the only way many western nations kept the age pyramid shaped like a pyramid. Abusing the immigrants by low balling the wages on offer didn't have to be part of the immigration plan.
However, the primary culprits in creating income inequality are not immigration (legal or illegal). The same corporations and financial institutions that seek to depress wages (the cost of labor) to maximize profits have a huge array of other previously illegal financial activities that have taken money out of the real economy. The insistance on short term financial results rather than a long term goal with an eye to social responsibility, has driven finance decisions and management to run businesses and investments that are not rewarding many people outside those in the executive suites and in the rop ranks of financial corporations. (When compensation for executives comes down to how the share price is doing, on a quarterly basis, there is all sorts of short term finagling. Cutting labor force always drives up share price short term, for instance... Read the history of General Electric in the US and UK) )
Blaming immigrants, who are given jobs by those same corporations seeking to drive down costs, is a little like blaming drug users for the crimes of the cartels.
It distracts the masses from targeting the real problems.

From 1929 through to 1980 the median income went up every year in the Uk and US. After that it has consistently gone down. This despite warnings like the Savings and Loans scandals in 89(?) .
that financialization was getting out of hand as in did in the 1920s.

rickyp wrote:Fate

Further, I don't believe we have any way of measuring how much illegal immigration suppresses wages for those on the lower rungs of the employment ladder.

I think we do. We could look at wages in industries dominated by illegal workers in the US over time. The meart packing industry has seen wages plummet due to the employment of "undocumented workers".
The culprit here is not the illegal immigrants. Its employers who would rather employ them then ensure that they are documented.

Okay, well thanks for making my argument for me! In other words, they are a net negative for the working class.

It's funny--in Chicago, I met with an environmental lobbyist. He supports Clinton and is a true-blue Democrat. In 3 minutes, he and I solved illegal immigration. It's not hard. The immigrants, however, are not innocent. They are here "illegally."

That said, stop them from working and fine and/or imprison those who employ them. Prohibit government benefits. Problem solved. No wall needed. You're welcome, America.

Why doesn't it happen? Chamber of Commerce wants cheap labor; Democrats want the issue.

Blaming immigrants, who are given jobs by those same corporations seeking to drive down costs, is a little like blaming drug users for the crimes of the cartels.

This is a strawman. Nobody (or at least hardly anybody) blames the immigrants, they blame the politicians for losing control of the borders.

fate

Okay, well thanks for making my argument for me! In other words, they are a net negative for the working class.

well, for those employed in certain industries previously.
For those not, they probably helped. How? With their lower labour costs, food prices have declined in the US. The portion of their income that a working family had to pay for food was much higher in the fifties than today.. And there may be similar impacts in other industries....
So its not that simple.

fate

That said, stop them from working and fine and/or imprison those who employ them. Prohibit government benefits. Problem solved. No wall needed. You're welcome, America.

Again. Not that simple. If 11 million are employed, they form a formidable portion of certain labor forces. And if you magically took them and their families out of the ecomony the loss to GDP (the money they spend and earn) would create a recession. Plus the food supply would be endangered and food prices would sky rocket.
Plus, they tend to be younger. The pension structures and tax structures of the economy rely upon a pyramid where there are many more young productive people at the base than old retired people at the apex of the pyramid. Magically take these people out and the economic pyramid collapses.
Better that those who are employing illegal immigrants be given an opportunity to convert their good "illegal" workers into legal workers through a sponsorship program of some kind.
And yes, enforce the e-verify mandate. Put a few of the meat packing executives behind bars and things will change quickly.
I'm sure you'll be writing Mr. Ryan to demand he put the mandate of e-verify to a vote in Congress. (Because the lobbyists are busy making sure he doesn't so write lots of letters Fate. )

why do I think UK immigration is out of control?
Gee, I listen to what the people there actually say and one of the big reasons for this exit is due to that feeling. Do a simple Google Search "UK immigration out of control" and you will find dozens if not hundreds or more hits.

Feel free to find a statistic that supports your belief (as you have done attempting to prove they are a net positive while ignoring the many negatives) but the bottom line, the majority right there think it's out of control and there's your "proof"

sass

Nobody (or at least hardly anybody) blames the immigrants, they blame the politicians for losing control of the borders.

Judging from the racist invective reported in the UK press.... i'm not sure thats entirely true.

There's always been a certain level of racism in the UK. Ask the Irish.And there's always been a certain percentage of people who feel they've been cut out of their entitled standard of living who think its because the latest wave of immigration has taken their jobs. (Indians, Hong Kong ...)
Its just that the dislocation today is greater, so there's a greater pool who might be attracted to the notion that there's someone they can identify as having"taken their jobs".

Is immigration really out of control due to the EU? Or is the economy just tilted away from people because of how the economy is currently working? Certainly years of austerity by government have only made the domestic economy worse. Thats not an immigration matter...

tom

why do I think UK immigration is out of control?
Gee, I listen to what the people there actually say and one of the big reasons for this exit is due to that feeling. Do a simple Google Search "UK immigration out of control" and you will find dozens if not hundreds or more hits

.
Ah so you subscribe to the Donald Trump method of informing one's self...
"I'm hearing ..."
"All I know is what I read on the Internet".

Yes, what solid information do you have? Here's something. You proved me wrong on the idea that drug testing was uncommon in the US. With actual information from a respected source.
Try it on immigration in the UK.

Ricky, I live here. Moreover I live in a traditionally working class city which voted Leave. I haven't met anybody who blames the immigrants themselves for the immigration problems.

rickyp wrote:fate

Okay, well thanks for making my argument for me! In other words, they are a net negative for the working class.

well, for those employed in certain industries previously.
For those not, they probably helped. How? With their lower labour costs, food prices have declined in the US. The portion of their income that a working family had to pay for food was much higher in the fifties than today.. And there may be similar impacts in other industries....
So its not that simple.

Meh. You're probably in favor of raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, right? Like that won't impact food prices . . .

In any case, I doubt there is enough difference to prop up the working families of America.

Furthermore, when you remove all the illegals from our jails, schools, and social services, I think you've got a net win.

fate

That said, stop them from working and fine and/or imprison those who employ them. Prohibit government benefits. Problem solved. No wall needed. You're welcome, America.

Again. Not that simple. If 11 million are employed, they form a formidable portion of certain labor forces. And if you magically took them and their families out of the ecomony the loss to GDP (the money they spend and earn) would create a recession. Plus the food supply would be endangered and food prices would sky rocket.
Plus, they tend to be younger. The pension structures and tax structures of the economy rely upon a pyramid where there are many more young productive people at the base than old retired people at the apex of the pyramid. Magically take these people out and the economic pyramid collapses.
Better that those who are employing illegal immigrants be given an opportunity to convert their good "illegal" workers into legal workers through a sponsorship program of some kind.
And yes, enforce the e-verify mandate. Put a few of the meat packing executives behind bars and things will change quickly.
I'm sure you'll be writing Mr. Ryan to demand he put the mandate of e-verify to a vote in Congress. (Because the lobbyists are busy making sure he doesn't so write lots of letters Fate. )

Actually, it is that simple.

After it's done, we can review our labor needs and increase legal immigration as needed.

EXACTLY!
...why do we require illegal immigrants to do menial work? Besides, any argument for them making substandard pay coming from such an 'enlightened" liberal (who wants everyone to earn a decent living wage) seems kind of silly doesn't it?

and regarding immigration being "out of control" in the UK. I need not provide any data, all I need do is show this is the way people FEEL and I did so. The people who felt this way voted to leave, did they listen to the supposed "facts" about how immigration is a net positive or did they let their feelings get in the way?
Why did they leave? ...because of those feelings!
Requiring any hard data is asking for something irrelevant isn't it?

sass

I haven't met anybody who blames the immigrants themselves for the immigration problems

.

What about this guy?


http://indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... ey8RKw_kFg

rickyp wrote:sass

I haven't met anybody who blames the immigrants themselves for the immigration problems

.

What about this guy?


http://indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... ey8RKw_kFg

Clearly, Sass has never met him.

fate

Meh. You're probably in favor of raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, right? Like that won't impact food prices

.
That would depend on what component of the cost of production was labor. And it would depend on whether there was effective competition in a sector that would cause some producers to attack prices in favour of market share.
What it would do is ensure that everyone working could afford food on what they were being paid. As it is a significant percentage of minimum wage workers end up on government assistance. Meaning that the low wage employers are being subsidized . By you.

One thing you need to recognize is that worker productivity in the US has not been rewarded with increased compensation for that increased productivity. Corporations have merely pocketed the profits or paid the executives and shareholders... This is a major contribution to inequality.

http://www.epi.org/publication/understa ... -its-real/

For minimum wage workers thisis particularly true. There has not been an increase in the minimum wage since 2009.

Henry Ford paid his workers a greeat wage because he knew they would be out buying his cars. Paying the lowest earners a living wage reduces the cost of the social safety net, and increases the domestic economy more than proving more income to any other group.