blah blah blah
Banks get the benefits, banks are evil, I get it.
I have no problem discussing how these institutions should pay more, things need to change there...fine

But we are talking about government handouts to the poor
Your argument?
Banks are bad, give poor people cell phones for free, give people eclairs for lunch,
That makes no sense, fix the banking situation, wonderful.
Maybe jobs will be created for the poor by doing so, great!
But because banks are bad we need to give more and more to the poor makes no sense at all.

Ricky you said so in your postings
You say we need to give more to the needy and the more we give, the more we get back (with no suggested end to the handouts I may add) Then you point to the banking situation and tell us they are the reason we need to give more?

No, they are a problem and that problem may lead to us having more poor people, I do get it, but they really are two different issues. We were discussing when is enough enough, what are people "owed" and you come up with banks are bad, give people eclairs!?

It just appears to me as the same old class warfare mantra...

Rich bad, poor oppressed, blah, blah, blah.

I can see the need for a cell phone, but there is an overuse of the program, no?

Can we at least agree that there are too many people who are receiving benefits that are defrauding the government?

Myself, I see no reason to have a cell phone. Back in the day we had to have phones too (land lines) and those were never free. Yes you don't have pay phones like we used to but here we are talking about an employer calling you and that was never an issue before, why is it now? We can argue how not having a car will harm your job outlook, should those be free as well? Maybe free suit and tie?

Necessities are what i can agree to, phones are nice and can help but are not required.

during lunch I had to run and get gas, pick up a prescription for my wife, etc. Damn it, I didn't have enough left over for a Whopper! ...and I was really in the mood for one. Damned banks taking too much of my money, they should pay for it for me!? Either them or the government, it's not my fault I don't have the cash on me.

Don't forget your free eclair!

tom

Ricky you said so in your postings

Did I? Please quote me when you want to comment rather than telling me what I wrote. I can't recognize what I said in your rewriting.

You gentlement are so worried about over lavish govenrment benefits. Why?
What is the fundamental reasons that you think government benfits for the poor are too great?
If its expense please try and estimate what saving syou might accrue with some of your suggestions. If its some kind of moral decay, please try and explain how the lure of these benefits you complain about is actually affecting society by way of sloth or malaise... or whatever it is you imagine they create.

Any pale in comparsion to what current corproate tax law does.
Example: Apple avoids $60 billion a year in taxes by hoarding money over seas...
If they broiught their financial hoardings into the real economy these taxes would be paid, plus the $600 billion hoarded money would be used to create genuine value. R&D expenditure, or American manufacturing or even just paying its employees more...
Thats just one small example of how financialzation and skewed tax and corproate law favours the wealthy and corproations over the rest of us.
Its a problem many hundreds of magnitudes larger than your imagined welfare excess...
Why you get out raged over the petty and manage to ignore how the screwing really happens is beyond me,

bbauska wrote:It just appears to me as the same old class warfare mantra...

Rich bad, poor oppressed, blah, blah, blah.

I can see the need for a cell phone, but there is an overuse of the program, no?

Can we at least agree that there are too many people who are receiving benefits that are defrauding the government?

We had this discussion before. What you call fraud seems to include getting what the schemes say someone is entitled to.

Yes there is fraud. But if you deal with it by throwing the baby out with the bathwater, you hit the genuine claimants too.

By all means invest in fraud detection and punish.

Now let's go back to the facts...People on government assistance received an average total of $404 in food stamps, SSI benefits, TANF and General assistance to live off of. I suppose a family with two kids could get around $1,600 a month in benefits plus possibly Section 8 housing also, which could greatly reduce housing costs. But Section 8 housing waiting lists are awfully long. $1,600 for 4 people even if only paying $300 for reduced housing--that ain't a lot. A lot of the benefits go to children. Just 5% of the US population is receiving more than half of their income from cash benefits, food stamps or SSI. http://www.cheatsheet.com/personal-fina ... ?a=viewall

They livin' high on d hog, them poor...

Tom:

Yes you don't have pay phones like we used to but here we are talking about an employer calling you and that was never an issue before, why is it now?

Ok Tom, lets pretend you're homeless. How would you like me to get in touch with you to tell you I would like to hire you? Shall I use telepathy perhaps? Wait, should I simply wait for you to one day return to inquire about the job? That assumes you have enough money for the bus and can make it back. Which assumes you didn't use your limited money for food. Which of course assumes you had money in the first place. I know, I'll call the shelter phone number and ask for you right? Nope. The shelter will not confirm or deny you're there. And do I really want to roll the dice on someone staying at a shelter anyway? Oh, I know, how about I write you a message and place it in a balloon? Whoever opens it can then have a look for you. No, better still, I'll use chalk and I'll chalk the streets to get your attention. My message could say something like, "Hey, Tom, I'd like to hire you at my fast food joint. Can you please come back so we can discuss details?" That ought to do it.

Do me a favor, get yourself to your local United Way and ask if you can participate in their next poverty simulation.

Ricky, you did say it in a round about way exactly as I wrote. You absolutely said this without saying those exact words. You sound like Bill Clinton, "I did not have sex with that woman" ...yes you did.

Dag, Lets pretend you are homeless 20 years ago. What did you do then for a phone number?
...there you go, what you did then can be done today. Use a friends number, a relative, or tell them you will drop in tomorrow, etc. Nothing has changed but your perception of what is a "necessity" Again, what a bout a car to get to your job? What about a nice apartment so you can have a good nights sleep and a morning shower? It is absolutely not required, never was before, still not today

tom

Ricky, you did say it in a round about way exactly as I wrote

.
When you want to argue a point I've made, quote me.
What you think I've said is usually very different from your "round a bout" interpretations.

Freeman3

Now let's go back to the facts

from your facts...

A 2015 study by the University of California at Berkeley found that states and the federal government spent $152.8 billion a year on food stamps, health insurance, and cash assistance programs, more than half of it going to working families who were having trouble making ends meet.

Now this is the challenge I gave to Tom ad Bbbauska. Try and come up with a number that explains the "damage" that these suppossedly too lavish benefits generate. Turns our that ALL of the benefits amount to $152 billion and even Tom and Bbauska are willing to admit some of this is acceptable.
How much is fraud or excessive guys?
And compare it to the money that corporations and the wealthy benefit from government laws, tax codes and policies? If Apple paid their taxes insteadof hiding it overseas that would account for $60 billion a year.... More than any waste or excessive spending on "too lavish" benefits.
I'd rather all the welfare recipients get a cell phone versus billionares writing off corporate jets as a "security measure".
Which is what they do... (I'll bet Trump does.)

CEO “private security.” A “common corporate tax trick,” according to the New York Times, is corporate boards paying for private jets and other perks for their CEOs under the guise of security. As Steven Davidoff reported, typically CEOs would have to pay taxes on these benefits, but if the benefit is classified as necessary for security purposes, “the chief executive will pay a reduced tax bill or sometimes no tax at all

.”
http://www.alternet.org/economy/private ... -loopholes

rickyp wrote:How much is fraud or excessive guys?

If you commit fraud, you should lose your benefits and go to jail if convicted. That is regardless of it being corporate or general welfare.

You haven't answered what the minimum standards that every US citizen or legal immigrant should have in their life. Answer others questions before challenging others.

What ricky said:

regarding govt handouts:

The better then quality the greater the effect.

for how long?

if you put a limit to their benefits what happens to them at the end of the limit if their circumstances haven't changed? Do they magically stop being poor?

(so that would be unlimited, forever if need be)

He claims banks are the cause and benefits have been eroded

In the meantime, the poor, working poor, and middle class have had all their meagre benefits eroded

There you go
more benefits, better benefits, forever lasting benefits,because banks made it so bad
That sir is exactly what you said yourself!

bbauska

If you commit fraud, you should lose your benefits and go to jail if convicted. That is regardless of it being corporate or general welfare.

Okay.
But how much of the benefits that are out there now ($152 billion) are fraudulent? I'd love to know why you think that there is rampant faud that amounts to anything significant?
(And for comparison I offered just one corporations tax evsion...)

tom
What ricky said:

regarding govt handouts:
The better then quality the greater the effect.

tom

for how long?

As long as they are legitimately needed.
Ifyou can demontrate how a poor person dependent on beenfits can suddenly become independent just because you cut their benefits off ...go ahead.
I think thats magical thinking.

tom

He claims banks are the cause and benefits have been eroded.

I claim banks are the cause of what Tom?

Here's the facts. If wealthy people and corporations (particularly the financial sector) fail to pay their taxes through tax avoidance, the creation of favorable tax laws that they lobby for or just by cheating, then tax revenues fall.
If tax revenues fall then one of three things or a combination of three things must happen
- the working class and middle class have to make up the difference with their tax load.
- the money sent on services or benefits must decrease
- the debt must increase.

Now its all very well and good to focus on the $152 billion that has been identifiedas "benefits" (State federal and local together) but even if you cut it by a third you haven't made up the revenue that Apple alone owes annually in legitimate taxes that they avoid because of tax law...

So yes, if you mean by banks (and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) the financial sector, and the laws and regulations that allow the very wealthy and corporations to avoid paying their share of the tax burden ...yes they cause all three things... pressure on increased tax burdern for others, pressure on expenditures of every kind by government and increased debt.

bbauska

You haven't answered what the minimum standards that every US citizen or legal immigrant should have in their life.

I did. You didn't notice. I'll reiterate more fully.
Food security. Access to affordable housing. Access to the education level that they deserve. Assistance in finding gainful employment. Access to medical care.
Access to legal assistance if required. Responsive and responsible protection of their person and enviroment.
All delivered in the least beauracratic and most effecient and effective methods possible with dignity for both the provider and the provided.
Not hard to do if the tax burden was fairly shared and the finacial systems were fairly operated, instead of the way its been gamed.

When you say Faud, do you mean the Saudis?

If you mean fraud, (which you probably do, but it is had to tell with you...), then I do not want to do a comparison. If there is fraud, then convict and imprison. I want both the corporate recipient and general recipient tried.

Do you? Or is your bias against corporation shading your ability to be equitable?