Join In On The Action "Register Here" To View The Forums

Already a Member Login Here

Board index Forum Index
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 3048
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 11 Jan 2017, 8:19 am

it comes down to this: is it reasonable for Israel to demand as a precondition to peace that Israel be recognized as a Jewish state in perpetuity? I say yes, apparently you say no (I say apparently because you refuse to be drawn in any linear argument, a confession of the weakness of your position). My position is that if the Palestinians refuse to do this the rest of the world has no moral obligation to pressure Israel to make a non-existent peace (non-existent because the Palestinians would not have agreed to a real peace.). In fact, it would be immoral for the world to pressure Israel to make this non-existent peace. Your response to this I suspect will be a non-linear response about the unjustness of the Palestinian situation and of inevitability of the world going around to Ricky's position. Of course you have no proof of this. You're the one that essentially say that might makes right because you say that we must force Israel to give in to a dangerous country on its border when said country will not give up its attempt to make Israel Arab controlled.

And by the way, the Palestinians just frittered away 8 years where they had a US president more sympathetic to their position than most. It ain't going to get better under Trump
User avatar
Statesman
 
Posts: 10979
Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

Post 11 Jan 2017, 1:45 pm

freeman3
I say yes, apparently you say no

No.
I asked this :
ricky
Is there a way for Israel to be a Jewish State and provide equal rights and equal access to all protections under law to everyone?

If being a Jewish State means enshrining in perpetuity a situation where minorities are treated as second class citizens.... don't you have a difficulty with this? I'm certain that the Arabs have a problem because it means Arabs living in Israel will always be 2nd class if they are not Jewish.
They aren't just representing Arabs in the west bank...but also those who remained behind and kept their homes in Israel proper.

I have a problem with a lot of nations that treat classes of citizens differently. Not just Israel.
User avatar
Emissary
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: 15 Oct 2002, 9:34 pm

Post 13 Jan 2017, 11:31 pm

Freeman:

it comes down to this: is it reasonable for Israel to demand as a precondition to peace that Israel be recognized as a Jewish state in perpetuity?


Yes. It is more than reasonable.
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 4792
Joined: 08 Jun 2000, 10:26 am

Post 17 Jan 2017, 7:11 am

rickyp wrote:freeman3
I say yes, apparently you say no

No.
I asked this :
ricky
Is there a way for Israel to be a Jewish State and provide equal rights and equal access to all protections under law to everyone?

If being a Jewish State means enshrining in perpetuity a situation where minorities are treated as second class citizens.... don't you have a difficulty with this? I'm certain that the Arabs have a problem because it means Arabs living in Israel will always be 2nd class if they are not Jewish.
They aren't just representing Arabs in the west bank...but also those who remained behind and kept their homes in Israel proper.

I have a problem with a lot of nations that treat classes of citizens differently. Not just Israel.


Would you say that the treatment of Palestinians in refugee camps in Jordan, the West Bank, Gaza, Syria, and Lebanon constitutes Apartheid? They have been treated as second class citizens in these places for almost 70 years.
User avatar
Statesman
 
Posts: 10979
Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

Post 17 Jan 2017, 11:30 am

rayjay
Would you say that the treatment of Palestinians in refugee camps in Jordan, the West Bank, Gaza, Syria, and Lebanon constitutes Apartheid? They have been treated as second class citizens in these places for almost 70 years.

I think those that don't have citizenship in their host country are being treated as refugees. Refugees have their own status in international law. (And in national laws).
below, is a little dated, but explains their status....
Every nation that hosts refugees, finds ways to accept them, and in some cases integrate them into their societies if the refugees want to permanently relocate.
A lot of the Palestinian refugees don't wish their homes in the camps to be permanent...

Palestinian refugees, according to UNRWA, are defined as persons whose normal residence was Palestine during the period between 1 June 1946 and 15 May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict, and who took refuge in one of the countries or areas where UNRWA provides relief – as well as their direct descendants through the male line.

At the eruption of the 1967 war UNRWA had to accommodate more Palestinian refugees, namely those who were being displaced for the second time having earlier been registered with UNRWA in the camps of the Occupied Territories (as displaced refugees), and those who were being displaced for the first time following the occupation of the West Bank. Six emergency camps were created in Jordan.
A camp, according to UNRWA, is a plot of land under the disposal of UNRWA given by the host government to accommodate Palestinian refugees and set up facilities to cater for their basic needs. In some cases, Palestinians were unable to get units in the refugee camps. Some camps were established by the Jordanian government but were not officially recognized by UNRWA. In Jordan, in addition to the ten UNRWA-run or "official" camps there are three unofficial camps:. Madaba, Prince Hassan (Nasser), and Sukhneh.
In December 2002, 42 per cent of the registered Palestinian refugees (1,698,271) lived in Jordan, of whom 17 per cent lived in camps, totalling a population of 296,803.

Many refugees and displaced persons, especially those who held Jordanian nationality, relied on their social networks and were able to settle in urban centres. There are more than fifty-four settlements – squatter areas where Palestinians live well-integrated into their communities. Few of them, however, are eligible for UNRWA services: examples include Waqqas in the Jordan Valley, and Marriekh.
UNRWA has been left as the only organizational structure for the 1948 refugees. "The UN flag flying in the camps has a great symbolism," says William Lee, UNRWA Director in Jordan. "It means that the world hasn't forgotten them." The fact that it has tentacles that reach out to the international community, primarily the United Nations (with the implication that it is bound by UNGA Resolution 194 (III)), renders it a more significant organization through which economic and political priorities and demands may be renegotiated (Farah 1997: 291


If you are going to make the point that Palestinians have been victimized by Arab nations, I agree.
The point is, how to achieve a permanent peaceful solution that offers justice to Palestinians and Israelis - including Arab citizens of Israel. (And Jewish citizens of Palestine if any remain.)