rayjay
Contrary to your assertions, the Palestinians have not tried peace. They have said that at times, and some of there representatives and many of their people have espoused that at times. But overall, they have not tried peace given who they've elected and what those elected representative preach, and what they tell their children, and the funding they provide terrorists. If they truly wanted peace they would get it.
Please quote me saying that they have "tried peace".
rayjay
If they truly wanted peace they would get it
On terms that are acceptable?
Rayjay
I've never said that the Israelis are perfectly moral. I have said that their cause is more moral than the Palestinians, and their actions are much more moral than the countries that surround them
I've said you argued the Israelis moral superiority... That's is what you admit here.
Whatever their superiority .... they have enough blood on their hands, and are guilty of enough
abusive behavior in the occupation that their moral superiority over Arabs is akin to being the tallest midget in the room.
freeman3
There is an element of absurdity in the Palestininan position, Ricky which is also manifest in Arab terrorism. At the end of the day, they want an Arab state to take the place of Israel. That being the case this moral suasion case will not work. The world is not going to agree that Israel should allow itself to be controlled by an Arab majority. There was a partition plan accepted by Jews , there was an Arab invasion to take all of Palestine that failed and Israel was formed. The world is not going to force Israel to allow itself to be ruled by Arabs that hate them. Democracy does not work when two groups cannot abide each other.
All true.
freeman3
Apartheid in South Africa was clearly wrong in that a white majority discriminated against a black majority and treated them as second-class citizens. The blacks were not treated this way because they tried to drive the whites out of the country and lost. They had not expressed the view that the white majority should be annihilated and that is why they were treated as being inferior. They were treated that way because the whites wanted to keep political control over a black majority they deemed inferior. Eventually, the world--aghast at this appalling treatment and stigmatizing of another racial group--imposed sanctions which helped to create change
.
All true. Please also acknowledge that some of the south African minorities resorted to violence in their struggle against the oppression.
Also acknowledge that what the whites did was fence off the blacks . They kept the best parts of the land for themselves and forced millions of blacks into reserves.
A black man could walk freely and safely in a white area. A white man could not be safe in a black zone, unless their were white activists working to end apartheid.
Similarly in Israel, Arabs with passes are safe in the occupied west bank. Israelis are unsafe in Palestinian sections. Similarly Israel manages to keep water resources and land for its settlers .... and on and on.
freeman3
The situation here is quite different. Israel in the West Bank is ruling over a people that wants to take back all of the land that is controlled by Israel. Certainly, Palestinians do not have full political rights, and Israel favors its own interests over Palestinians to be sure, but they are not treated as being inferior. What's more, they hold the key to getting out of their plight which is to get rid of tha absurd notion they are going to kick the Jews out of Palestine and accept the reality of a separate Jewish and Palestinian state. Since they refuse to do that the moral suasion of the argument that they are being mistreated is vastly lessened. Of course two groups that dislike each other are not going to treat each other the same. Overheated and inaccurate language like comparing the Palestinian situation to apartheid does not serve the Palestinian cause because it is not accurate and just serves to perpetuate Palestinian belief in a fantasy that will not happen (i.e, getting back all of Palestine
Did you ever wonder why Israel was so comfortable with South African Apartheid? 1975 Israel–South Africa Agreement made Israel SA's sole strategic partner. Including nuclear collaboration... (Somewhat of a non-sequitar)
Freeman, Its really not
that different. If a class of people is treated "differently", does not enjoy the same rights and suffers from discriminatory treatment - its the same. When people familiar with life in apartheid SA visit the occupied west bank, they make the comparisons.. (Desmond Tutu and others)
Critics of Israeli policy say that "a system of control" in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, including the ID system, Israeli settlements, separate roads for Israeli and Palestinian citizens around many of these settlements, military checkpoints, marriage law, the West Bank barrier, use of Palestinians as cheaper labour, Palestinian West Bank exclaves, inequities in infrastructure, legal rights, and access to land and resources between Palestinians and Israeli residents in the Israeli-occupied territories, resembles some aspects of the South African apartheid regime, and that elements of Israel's occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, contrary to international law.[4] Some commentators extend the analogy to include treatment of Arab citizens of Israel, describing their citizenship status as second-class.[12]
The most recent American to use this analogy is General Mattis. He of the blunt talk.
It does no real good to quibble about the scope, or intensity, or the grade of the inequity and oppression . Its like your saying this is "apartheid lite", or something. The real life experience of Arabs in the West bank is of second class peoples, enduring daily humiliations. When that ends perhaps the violence will end. If your country was occupied in this fashion would you encourage your fellow citizens to resist, perhaps violently, or would you acquiesce and accept the second rate status?
Was it okay for revolutionary citizens in France and the US to rebel violently against second rate treatment? But not some Arabs in the west bank? Should Arabs who live in ISIS occupied areas, simply accept their fate or would you applaud them if they made an effort to resist ISIS?
Oppression is in the eye of one) the oppressed 2) the beholder and never those in control. If you asked a SAfrican white in 65, or 75 or 85, they had every reason to say the blacks had it pretty good compared to before, and that for their own security they needed the walls and the fences and the armed guards...
freeman3
Yes, the world as a whole is concerned about Jewish settlements in the West Bank but it's not enough to put crippling sanctions on Israel to give up political control of their country. It's not going to happen and it's absurd for the Palestinians to continue to believe in it
If Israel has nothing much to lose by continuing its occupation (as described above), why will they ever change it?
I suspect that many of the sanctions from Europe are having some effect on Israel. If not economically in a great fashion, the analogies to apartheid must grate on a portion of the populace.
It has to be noted again that the recent UN sanction was voted on by the UK, New Zealand and a lot of other nations that Israel would like to have friendly relations with...
freeman3
As to the notion that Israel as a Jewish state is inherently undemocratic and discriminatory. Yes it is
And yet their political leaders and their defenders (especially in the US) state over and over again that they are the middle east's only democratic nation. And fail to acknowledge that it does discriminate...
freeman3
. But there is a strong case for Israel to be treated in a sui generis matter. 2000 years of discrimination, the Holocaust, continued world-wide anti-semitism, and the enmity of many Arabs against Jews makes it necessary for there to be a separate nation for a group that has a continuous history for 2,500-3000 years on land they have ancestral ties to.
The Israel Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty , does not include freedom of religion and the principle of equality. I don't see how this strong case could extend to justify setting up a part of its citizenry as a second class or justify the type of occupation that occurs in the west bank.
The key to any solution in the west bank is Israel adopting an entirely generous policy with Palestine and helping it to grow and prosper... Night and day from the current occupation.