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Post 20 Jul 2016, 7:48 am

danivon wrote:The real question is not whether some transgender people are a threat (like any other group there will be good and bad). No one ever said that no transgender people could ever be bad.


Meh.

No, the issues are:

1. Public schools instructing children as early as the second grade on LGBTQ issues.
2. Parents with children who are as young as 4 permitting their children to "identify" as the opposite gender.
3. Changing all manner of laws for (at most) 0.03% of the population.
4. Having to outright ignore reality and pretend it's something that it's not. For example https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/201 ... ool-girls/

A man in his 40's claims to be a transgendered lesbian, walks about nude in the women's locker room, which means a high school girl swim team is forced to use a small side room to change--unless they wish to do so in front of the man.

This is not the only case like this. We all have to accept ridiculous premises or somehow exhibit some "phobia" or another. it's rubbish.

No one can change their chromosomes. Whatever you're born as you are. Don't like it? Change it.
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Post 20 Jul 2016, 1:24 pm

Not only are actual transgenders the issue but when you allow exceptions for them, you open the door to any who want. We can not question a pervert whether he is transgender or not, he is welcome to use any rest room he "identifies" with. If a pervert wants, it's open season!
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Post 20 Jul 2016, 1:33 pm

I think in general it's a good thing for people to define who they are rather than society making everyone fit into certain identities that do not fit particularly individuals. That being said, there still has to be an accommodation between an individual's right to define themselves and the interests of others. So I keep an open mind when people bring up problems with transgender people using bathrooms that are the opposite of their current sex. I guess the question becomes are these random, minor problems or are they significant issues?
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Post 20 Jul 2016, 3:01 pm

freeman3 wrote:I think in general it's a good thing for people to define who they are rather than society making everyone fit into certain identities that do not fit particularly individuals. That being said, there still has to be an accommodation between an individual's right to define themselves and the interests of others. So I keep an open mind when people bring up problems with transgender people using bathrooms that are the opposite of their current sex. I guess the question becomes are these random, minor problems or are they significant issues?


Quite frankly, transgender folks are "minor" problems. That's why this whole issue is overblown. Again, 0.03% of the population--and all public buildings need laws rewritten?

Where did they go to the bathroom before the laws were changed?

Meanwhile, many are inconvenienced and embarrassed for the sake of a tiny number.
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Post 21 Jul 2016, 11:25 am

Doctor Fate wrote:No, the issues are:

1. Public schools instructing children as early as the second grade on LGBTQ issues.
Can you provide some evidence? How widespread is this and what exactly is being "instructed"?
2. Parents with children who are as young as 4 permitting their children to "identify" as the opposite gender.
So parents should be involved in "thought police" type parenting?
3. Changing all manner of laws for (at most) 0.03% of the population.
Is the number affected the benchmark for whether laws apply differently? Less than 0.5% of Americans are quadriplegic. Is that enough to have laws to stop discrimination against them and provide government support.

No one can change their chromosomes. Whatever you're born as you are. Don't like it? Change it.
No, but there are more than two genders if you base it purely on Chromosomes. XX is female. XY is male. And then there are people who have the chromosomes for one gender but not the parts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) occurs for genetically XX (Female) people but they are masculinised during development in the womb and through infancy and in "full" cases will have male genitalia and no breasts. There are also XY people in whom CAH inhibits virilization so they are less male.

Progestin induced virilization is largely the result of an anti-miscarriage drug used during pregnancy in the 50s and 60s which I'm some cases led to XX-chromosome babies being born with male characteristics and being sexed as male.

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) means that XY (male) people can have female characteristics and in the "complete" cases will have a vagina.

5-alpha-reductase deficiency has a similar effect to AIS and is often confused with it.

Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome (PMDS) will result in an XY baby with internal female sexual organs.

Anorchia is where an XY fetus will have no gonads after 14 weeks and so not develop testicles. They will appear male at birth but often develop breasts

Then there are those who do not have XX or XY but other combinations. XXX, XXY, XXXY, XO (Turner Syndrome where there is a single X sex chromosomes or one X is only partial) and XYY.

In Chapelle Syndrome the X chromosome that comes from the father contains part of a Y chromosome, called SRY, that deals with sex, leading to an XX male. Similar, Swyer syndrome is where the Y chromosome is missing the SRY part, resulting in an XY female.
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Post 21 Jul 2016, 11:31 am

Doctor Fate wrote:
Where did they go to the bathroom before the laws were changed?
I am guessing whichever they felt most comfortable in.

Which laws do you mean though? Those that bar discrimination, or those that try to enforce gender?

Meanwhile, many are inconvenienced and embarrassed for the sake of a tiny number.

How are you "inconvenienced"?
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Post 21 Jul 2016, 1:46 pm

danivon wrote:
Doctor Fate wrote:No, the issues are:

1. Public schools instructing children as early as the second grade on LGBTQ issues.
Can you provide some evidence? How widespread is this and what exactly is being "instructed"?


Google out there?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lgbt ... s-40566047

2. Parents with children who are as young as 4 permitting their children to "identify" as the opposite gender.
So parents should be involved in "thought police" type parenting?


Yup. Parents are supposed to protect children from their foolish inclinations.

3. Changing all manner of laws for (at most) 0.03% of the population.
Is the number affected the benchmark for whether laws apply differently? Less than 0.5% of Americans are quadriplegic. Is that enough to have laws to stop discrimination against them and provide government support.


Sorry, but there is no comparison--unless you want to say that being transgendered is a physical handicap, which I would invite you to prove.

No one can change their chromosomes. Whatever you're born as you are. Don't like it? Change it.
No, but there are more than two genders if you base it purely on Chromosomes. XX is female. XY is male. And then there are people who have the chromosomes for one gender but not the parts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex


So what? Again, it does nothing to change someone's chromosomes.

I'd read all of that before. It doesn't change anything. Furthermore, it is a distraction from the "trans" issues that are being raised now. Those people have genuine medical conditions, not psychological issues.
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Post 21 Jul 2016, 2:42 pm

Doctor Fate wrote:
danivon wrote:
Doctor Fate wrote:No, the issues are:

1. Public schools instructing children as early as the second grade on LGBTQ issues.
Can you provide some evidence? How widespread is this and what exactly is being "instructed"?


Google out there?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lgbt ... s-40566047
So that is one State, telling kids about the existence of same sex couples. As if they won't have already started to notice if there are any around them.

Do you object to kids being taught about other things that exist but you believe are immoral?

2. Parents with children who are as young as 4 permitting their children to "identify" as the opposite gender.
So parents should be involved in "thought police" type parenting?


Yup. Parents are supposed to protect children from their foolish inclinations.
Like believing in Santa or the tooth fairy?

I was listening to a radio programme about parents of transsexuals the other day. They were generally not overindulgent fools. Some took years to acknowledge, and hoped it was just a whim, but when did not simply go away, and it was clear that the child was seriously distressed, what are they actually supposed to do?

Force them to dress and act in the "right" gender? Send them to re-education? Disown them?

Some did not accept it. One father sounded devastated as he described how he was losing his daughter but could not see her as anything other than a girl. She is adamant she will transition to male when she can.

Is it also his fault?

Not a situation I can speak about from experience, so I find it hard to judge the parents involved either way. I doubt anyone else here can. Can you, for example?

3. Changing all manner of laws for (at most) 0.03% of the population.
Is the number affected the benchmark for whether laws apply differently? Less than 0.5% of Americans are quadriplegic. Is that enough to have laws to stop discrimination against them and provide government support.


Sorry, but there is no comparison--unless you want to say that being transgendered is a physical handicap, which I would invite you to prove. [/quote]I was asking about numbers, in response to your claim that 0.3% is too low to have laws about a group of people. Where is the number at which it is too onerous to pass laws? 0.4%? higher?

Or are you now saying it is not about the numbers?

No one can change their chromosomes. Whatever you're born as you are. Don't like it? Change it.
No, but there are more than two genders if you base it purely on Chromosomes. XX is female. XY is male. And then there are people who have the chromosomes for one gender but not the parts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex


So what? Again, it does nothing to change someone's chromosomes.

I'd read all of that before. It doesn't change anything. Furthermore, it is a distraction from the "trans" issues that are being raised now. Those people have genuine medical conditions, not psychological issues.
You may have read it, but I suspect you don't understand it. Among the trans population are people with these disorders. There are people with XX chromosomes who cannot change them but are not physically female either. And people who have XY chromosomes who are not physically male. Often the solution for them is hormone therapy to get them to one gender or the other - but still not always the one that the chromosomes alone would indicate.

For a start, it shows that chromosomes (genetic sex) alone do not determine physical sex. Where physical sex is ambiguous, clearly for the individual they may consider themselves to be one gender or the other, or neither.

On that basis, given that genetic sex has more than just male and female (what gender is an XXY or an XYY?), and physical sex can include various kinds of "Intersex" category, how can you be sure that either is determinative of what a person's perceived gender should be?

More to the point, why is it such a problem for you if someone wants to be a different gender?
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Post 23 Jul 2016, 8:35 am

danivon wrote:So that is one State, telling kids about the existence of same sex couples. As if they won't have already started to notice if there are any around them.


No, it's not one state. No, I won't google it for you. You don't have to believe me. Bet me. I can use the cash.

Do you object to kids being taught about other things that exist but you believe are immoral?


1. Someone's psychological dysfunction (in many cases--see Bruce Jenner) is not "something that exists." It certainly is not something a second-grader can comprehend.

2. The schools are not to teach religion, right? Moral values are inherently religious or anti-religious; certainly sexual mores are more appropriately taught and discussed at home than in schools.

3. Children's minds are not the State's property and/or petri dish.

Yup. Parents are supposed to protect children from their foolish inclinations.
Like believing in Santa or the tooth fairy?


I don't believe either are in the curriculum of California. Feel free to prove me wrong.

I was listening to a radio programme about parents of transsexuals the other day. They were generally not overindulgent fools. Some took years to acknowledge, and hoped it was just a whim, but when did not simply go away, and it was clear that the child was seriously distressed, what are they actually supposed to do?


Depends. It's difficult to make sweeping statements.

However, if a 4 year-old insists he/she is a dragon, a dog, or a superhero, what is a parent to do?

Those questions are not dissimilar. There is the mind of a child and then there is reality.

Force them to dress and act in the "right" gender? Send them to re-education? Disown them?

Some did not accept it. One father sounded devastated as he described how he was losing his daughter but could not see her as anything other than a girl. She is adamant she will transition to male when she can.

Is it also his fault?

Not a situation I can speak about from experience, so I find it hard to judge the parents involved either way. I doubt anyone else here can. Can you, for example?


Children do and say foolish things. Parents who do not correct those foolish things fail as parents.

You're writing as if children who go off on a bender are always right. Prove it.

3. Changing all manner of laws for (at most) 0.03% of the population.
Is the number affected the benchmark for whether laws apply differently? Less than 0.5% of Americans are quadriplegic. Is that enough to have laws to stop discrimination against them and provide government support.


Sorry, but there is no comparison--unless you want to say that being transgendered is a physical handicap, which I would invite you to prove.
I was asking about numbers, in response to your claim that 0.3% is too low to have laws about a group of people. Where is the number at which it is too onerous to pass laws? 0.4%? higher?[/quote]

They are not comparable issues. "Transgendered" people have been using bathrooms for decades with rare issues. The laws don't need to be changed. They can still relieve themselves without new laws.

You may have read it, but I suspect you don't understand it.


Right. Because condescension is an argument.

For a start, it shows that chromosomes (genetic sex) alone do not determine physical sex. Where physical sex is ambiguous, clearly for the individual they may consider themselves to be one gender or the other, or neither.


Psychology alone does not determine physical sex, but that is what we are supposed to accept--that whatever a person believes trumps whatever is physical. Biology is not science; belief is science.

You are welcome to that.

I am not going to argue every single condition because the laws are not about biological conditions, but psychological beliefs.

More to the point, why is it such a problem for you if someone wants to be a different gender?


It's not. It is a problem when someone claims a gender that is other than their physical gender--a grown male prancing about nude claiming he is a woman. In your mind, he's a woman. To the scientific world, he's a man.