rickyp wrote:bbauska

Do you think having to get photo ID is an unreasonable hoop to go through?

But of course it depends on how hard it is to get the valid photo ID...
As is seen in the story on Wisconsin, for some people its remarkably difficult. When spelling mistakes on 70 year old birth certificates are a reason to not provide an ID to someone who has relatives and friends to vouch for them...who can establish residency easily... but the ID is withheld even so.... then the process is obviously rigged to exclude the poor.

As I said at the start I'm okay with the theory. Its the practice which is obviously discriminatory.

But just so you know the actual facts about the use of photo ID

Individuals can buy assault weapons without showing identification in more than 30 states, while federal law prohibits states from allowing individuals to vote without some form of identification. In recent years, 13 states have passed stricter voter ID requirements and half a dozen more are considering voter suppression measures in the aftermath of the Supreme Court ruling invalidating a key section of the Voting Rights Act.In fact, a ThinkProgress analysis found that anyone can obtain assault rifles from unlicensed dealers at gun shows or online without a background check in 39 states. Zero states allow people to vote without some proof of identification

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/0 ... 0851/guns/

The above is from 2013,.... I think the issue is actually further apart now.

All very nice...

Should the government supply ID for the purchase of a gun. YES OR NO!

Aren't there numerous non profits and churches who assist those they serve with getting registered to vote? There are where I live.

The United Way is typically a very easy number to call in most states. I believe they provide information on how best to register to vote.

http://www.211.org

bbauska wrote:

danivon wrote:

bbauska wrote:

rickyp wrote:ray

why are we talking about guns?

we're talking about rights.
The right to vote, you seem to think is okay to take way from poor people until they go through unusual hoops to assert their right. Even if it means they don't get to vote this year...

My comment asks you to consider if the average person is quite so sanguine when the right to purchase or own a firearm is constrained by regulation or restrictions?
Well, maybe not average person. Average conservative politician.
I

Do you think having to get photo ID is an unreasonable hoop to go through? You have to do that to purchase a gun. Should it be the same thing?

Do you need a photo ID to buy a gun at an unregulated gun show?

Legally, yes

Wrong.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole
"Under federal law, private-party sellers are not required, nor are they permitted to perform background checks on buyers. They also are not required to record the sale, or ask for identification."

And

"As of September 2015, 18 states and Washington D.C. have background check requirements beyond federal law."

So for private (including gun show) sales, federal law and the state law of 32 states does not require ID.

Wow this turned into another US/foreign gun debate pretty quickly.

JimHackerMP wrote:Wow this turned into another US/foreign gun debate pretty quickly.

Gee Whiz, Who could have possibly turned it that way?

danivon wrote:

bbauska wrote:

danivon wrote:

bbauska wrote:

rickyp wrote:ray

why are we talking about guns?

we're talking about rights.
The right to vote, you seem to think is okay to take way from poor people until they go through unusual hoops to assert their right. Even if it means they don't get to vote this year...

My comment asks you to consider if the average person is quite so sanguine when the right to purchase or own a firearm is constrained by regulation or restrictions?
Well, maybe not average person. Average conservative politician.
I

Do you think having to get photo ID is an unreasonable hoop to go through? You have to do that to purchase a gun. Should it be the same thing?

Do you need a photo ID to buy a gun at an unregulated gun show?

Legally, yes

Wrong.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole
"Under federal law, private-party sellers are not required, nor are they permitted to perform background checks on buyers. They also are not required to record the sale, or ask for identification."

And

"As of September 2015, 18 states and Washington D.C. have background check requirements beyond federal law."

So for private (including gun show) sales, federal law and the state law of 32 states does not require ID.

I misunderstood what you meant. I was not thinking private sellers. Should they require ID to purchase a weapon? Should that ID be given freely to them for gun sales?

duck & cover....

bbauska

Should the government supply ID for the purchase of a gun. YES OR NO

!

If someone doesn't have a form of photo ID that meets the requirements of identification for voting
then it is incumbent upon the government to provide that ID freely, and with ease. Anything else is a poll tax.
There must also be mechanisms in place to allow for people who cannot meet the prescriptive means of the ID qualification to meet the objective.
What do I mean? If the objective is to ensure that a person is qualified to vote, then things like lost birth certificates, mis-spelled birth certificates could be remedied by having recognized citizens vouch for the people.
Or say this kind of system.... see third option.
http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?se ... dex&lang=e

If the free Id is used to ensure that people are correctly identifying themselves before purchasing a firearm I think that would be fine. I think it would be civilized to expect someone purchasing a firearm to face at least the same restrictions on identification as someone trying to vote. But that ain't happening is it? Any foreign terrorist can purchase a weapon in 30 states...

You'll note that Scott Walker refused to fund the educational outreach that was supposed to ensure the unidentified knew about what to do, and has done nothing to make securing an ID easy. In fact he has disbanded the fair election commission.
To pretend that this identification issue is anything but an attempt to suppress the votes of poor people is ridiculous.

Ricky:

we're talking about rights.
The right to vote, you seem to think is okay to take way from poor people until they go through unusual hoops to assert their right. Even if it means they don't get to vote this year

You are a liar. I am not ok with laws that unfairly prevent poor people from voting. However, poor people are capable of getting IDs. I coach a U12 soccer team and I have a photo ID for every boy on the team that I should the ref before each game. No ID, no play soccer. It's not hard to get a photo ID.

Meanwhile, you have never voted in a U.S. election so you have no idea what you are talking about. You have no idea how easy it is to commit voter fraud.

If you are so upset about it, why don't you lobby your government to change it's laws that require voter IDs with photos. You just live with the status quo up there, don't you. It sounds like you don't care about poor Canadians at all. Man you are such a fascist jerk for disenfranchising poor Canadians. How do you live with yourself?

Rayjay

You are a liar. I am not ok with laws that unfairly prevent poor people from voting.

Your okay if it affects them this year according to you...
Ray

Even if someone is unfortunately frozen out in 2016, I'm sure they will get the support they need to vote in the next election.

Rayjay

However, poor people are capable of getting IDs. I coach a U12 soccer team and I have a photo ID for every boy on the team that I should the ref before each game. No ID, no play soccer. It's not hard to get a photo ID

I'm pretty sure that your soccer leagues photo ID is not acceptable when trying to vote in Wisconsin. Or anywhere for that matter.
Only certain IDs are acceptable and if someone doesn't have those they have to get a non-driver ID in Wisconsin.
Moreover, if you read the article discussing the difficulties encountered by poor people in Wisconsin and actually absorbed the information you realize the problem isn't the requirement for photo ID its the incredible hoops that some have to go through to get them and to correct mistaken birth certificates or the loss of identification through mishap.
When the DMV is many miles away and only open a few hours.... people of limited means are at a genuine disadvantage and rely upon charity to get their ID.
One shouldn't have to rely on charity to vote.

rayjay

If you are so upset about it, why don't you lobby your government to change it's laws that require voter IDs with photos.

You sound like Fate....
We're discussing the issue in Wisconsin...
But if you go to the link above you'll see Canada's Voting ID methods... they do work and no one feels disenfranchised or requires a charity to ensure they can vote.

yes, but I'm ok with Canadian methods for the US ... so don't accuse me otherwise.

Nice try at a sidestep.

It is a right to vote and to purchase a firearm.
You say it is imperative to give free ID to assert the Constitutional right to vote.

Since you did NOT answer the last question (a common from you, btw) I will ask again along with a couple others.

1. Should ID be required for the purchase of a firearm and voting?
2. Should that ID be free to assert ALL Constitutional rights?
3. If the ID is required should it be free for all citizens?

The answers will show whether you have bias toward your unequal treatment based upon your position. I can answer them very easily, and I have placed it in an easy format for you to use as well.

1. YES
2. YES
3. YES

Side step? You asked...
bbauska

Should the government supply ID for the purchase of a gun. YES OR NO!

I said

If the free Id is used to ensure that people are correctly identifying themselves before purchasing a firearm I think that would be fine. I think it would be civilized to expect someone purchasing a firearm to face at least the same restrictions on identification as someone trying to vote. But that ain't happening is it? Any foreign terrorist can purchase a weapon in 30 states...

That's a pretty direct answer. a yes.
However, its an answer to a hypothetical problem...Photo ID is not generally required for fire arm purchase.
And increasingly it is for voting... making the ID problem real for voting...at least for poor people...
Interesting that one of the issues in the election is that some politicians on both sides are claiming the system is rigged....
And yet these examples of voter suppression aren't part of the discussion...

You sound like Fate....
We're discussing the issue in Wisconsin...
But if you go to the link above you'll see Canada's Voting ID methods... they do work and no one feels disenfranchised or requires a charity to ensure they can vote.

I think, Ricky, that Ray Jay was speaking ironically when he said that. And, to boot, he was trying to point out the way you sound sometimes. It never fails to amuse me that you feel, as a Canadian, you have to educate your less intellectual neighbors south of the 49th parallel; like it's up to you to save us from ourselves.

Now, if an American took the same tone with a Canadian--with a problem that Canada truly had and ought to have been criticized, whatever that may be--he or she would be called a goddam, arrogant, ignorant, interfering Yank who doesn't know what he's talking about.

And the Canadians would be right to point them out as such.

I'm sorry if that sounds a bit harsh but I've been bottling that up for a while in the truly Canadian tradition of polite conversation; but Ray Jay--thanks by the way--provided me with the perfect example to finally bring it up.

I draw your attention to the words "foreign terrorist". Words like that show your bias. Thank you for the "If/that" statement.

Now answer whether everyone should be equally treated by the government? Basically we are talking about government ID for all rights along with punishment for misuse and/or forgery. I am fine with that. Are you?