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Post 25 Apr 2016, 6:54 am

Freeman

proof is everything


For you perhaps, not me.

To make such a statement underscores the fact that you have never been in a relationship with or felt connected to your own higher power.

Faith does not require proof. Faith is an experience, a relationship, something known as a result of an experience with that which is wholly other.

It requires an openness, a sense of wonder and humility. It is love in its purest form and a gift bestowed on a person who typically is seeking more, an amazing grace as it were.

I say 'typically' since sometimes it seems to crash in on a person for no apparent reason.

Why it is experienced by some and not others is a mystery to me and always has been. And as I've mentioned before, I understand why someone is an agnostic. I get that. Though I'm usually surprised by the absolute certitude of the atheist position.

I hope you experience God at some point in your life Freeman. It can be such a transformative encounter for the better. And if I could point to one aspect of such an encounter that makes it all worth it it's this....

The experience leaves the believer with a far greater capacity for love. There seems to be a greater depth, width and breadth to one's capacity that wasn't there before. That's the thrilling part and the part that leaves a person awestruck and forever grateful. And this experience cuts across the many truth claims from the various traditions and seems to hold true for all no matter their particular tradition.

Who knows, perhaps the agnostic simply doesn't have need for such. That may be true, but all I know is that I am thankful to the universe, God, universal spirit, source of love, whatever you want to call the "wholly other."

And I certainly hope that before you check out, you get to have this experience on some level that makes sense to you. In fact, I'll pray for that for you.

dag
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Post 25 Apr 2016, 11:46 am

Maybe Dags. I just have not had the observation that Christians are better people than non-Christians. It seems to me that some Catholic priests had a little too much love...
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Post 25 Apr 2016, 1:11 pm

Let me dispel your notion that Christians are better than non-Christians.

We are all the same when it comes to better or worse.
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Post 26 Apr 2016, 4:44 am

Of course you've not had that observation because it's simply not accurate. bbauska is quite right. People of faith are not better than better who do not hold to a faith. In the case of Christian faith, for example, I believe most of us, if we're being honest, learn to live with our own hypocrisy. I believe accepting our shadow side is simply part of allowing God to love even that part of us. It's humbling really. Imagine a loving mother or father who deals with a child who is self centered and self absorbed and you get it. We continue to love the child in spite of the child's antics. It's an imperfect analogy of course, of a much greater, deeper love. One that is patient, forgiving, understanding and steadfast and, in the words of a favorite theologian, influential.
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Post 27 Apr 2016, 5:17 am

bbauska wrote:Let me dispel your notion that Christians are better than non-Christians.

We are all the same when it comes to better or worse.
So why seek religion, if it does not make us better as people?

If it's just (as one reading of Dag's post at the top of the page would have it) so that as an individual we "feel" more loved, is it not a little self-centred?

Here is my problem - the same religious feelings that come from Christianity can come from any theistic religion that holds to an active and engaged entity who wants what they see as best for us. Which would include Islamic extremists, Aztec human sacrificers, Satanists...

Not to mention those who hear God telling them to do bad things - the mentally unwell people who believe they have the most direct connection to God of all.

It is interesting to see what you say, Dag, but not compelling to me as a reason to believe.
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Post 27 Apr 2016, 9:06 am

As I stated, I don't believe that adhering to a faith tradition makes one person better than another, however, any faith tradition worth its salt calls its members, for its own virtuous reasons, to go outside of themselves and to serve others on some level.

For the Christian who has had an experience of the "wholly other," what follows often times is a newfound worldview and a different trajectory for that person's life. Such a person is usually, not always, so grateful for this experience that their treatment of themselves and others is more compassionate. This is a good thing for the world I think you'll agree.

Its sounds as if you may be reducing this experience to a "feeling." I think many believers would say that feelings are certainly affected for the better but that the experience eventually becomes knowledge. Not the kind that can be acquired in a classroom or through a book. I'm searching for words to describe this phenomenon but an analogy may be best....it's the kind of knowledge that comes from falling in love with someone. Yes, initially there are warm, fuzzy feelings but the dynamism that exists between the two takes on a kind of knowledge, unprovable but certainly real and that knowledge acts as a directive or road map on how the two choose to live their lives from that point onwards. Their lives are different. They enjoy an improved quality of life.

To drill down a bit more, this knowledge might be characterized by realities such as "I can trust this person because he loves me" or "I know I am far from perfect but somehow she loves me in spite of myself" or "My love for her allows me to forgive her for her flaws and I know (not simply feel) that she will forgive me for my own failures." "I can depend on this person to be there for me" "I know that he will celebrate my accomplishments." "He wants what's best for me." "I choose to sacrifice my own wants and needs for her because it brings me a deep satisfaction to do so." "If called upon to do so, he would lay down his life for me and I would do the same for him."

Note that none of the examples I just outlined can be placed under a microscope and proven. However, they are real. And the fact that they are real changes the course of a persons life trajectory for the better.

My examples are for two people in love with each other but the same may be applied to close friends who love each other as well.

Ultimately, this knowledge, or perhaps it's better to say "insight," is so life altering that the recipient, in a spirit of gratitude for this gift or grace, finds themselves desiring to make the world a better place. This desire is exemplified by their decisions and actions which are almost always bound to going outside the self and finding temporary fulfillment in the service and treatment of others.

I certainly believe we all influence one another either through actions or ideas and insights but I don't think someone can compel another to actually believe in a tradition's truth claims.

Similar to the phenomenon of love, there's no place for compelling someone to believe. Like love, faith seems to be a free gift with no demands or strings attached. Like I said earlier, I don't understand why it shows up for some and not others. I've never understood that. I do believe that in order for such a gift to be received it helps to grease the skids of the process if there's an openness to it but then there are certainly stories of grace filled moments that simply arrive without warning. I reckon the process is tied to both an intellectual openness and honesty as well as an emotional openness and honesty but this is a riddle that has left me scratching my head for many years.

In summary, at their best, the majority of the world's major faith traditions offer its participants a glimpse of what's best about the human condition. All seem to encourage a move from self absorption to God consciousness, which again, at its best calls for more tolerance, more forgiveness, more compassion, more service and more friendship in the world.
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Post 27 Apr 2016, 10:21 am

"So why seek religion, if it does not make us better as people."

Yes. Imagine how powerful it would be if Christians actually attempted to emulate how Christ lived his life. Instead, it just becomes all people are bad, there is no salvation through good works only faith, and you need God to forgive one's sins. "In truth, there was one Christian and he died on the cross". Well, yeah, if the religion doesn't demand its adherents be better people than there was only one Christian.

There is just no way to know whatever feeling, knowledge you're having Dags is being caused by a connection to a higher power or is essentially something created by your mind alone.

If we can't prove something exists...then it doesn't. That is the only way we get to a better understanding of things. Otherwise, each one of us could attribute whatever explanations we want to how things truly are. If a belief cannot be proven, then why should anyone else give credence to that belief?

I think this article sums up why there is religion quite nicely.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/space-fa ... 74486.html
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Post 27 Apr 2016, 4:59 pm

If we can't prove that something exists, then it doesn't.


Haven't you ever loved another person Freeman? I certainly hope so. Has anyone ever reciprocated that love back to you? I hope so. I know it's an imperfect analogy but the dynamic of love can not be proven either. We see its impact, we see evidence for it all around hopefully but there's no proof that an entity called love exists in the world. It's not quantifiable. But it is real nonetheless. It is powerful too and it can motivate incredible accomplishments. Ask two people in love and they will tell you their love for one another is real and they are better for it. When you experience it, you "know" it to be good, true and beautiful.

That is the only way we get to a better understanding of things


That sounds so limiting. I think it's a vital way of getting a better understanding of things but certainly not the only way. And as absolutist as this sounds, even scientists are on guard and careful to admit that there are certain elements within the material world that elude us. We sometimes suspect that something is there (Heisenburg) but we can't catch it or hold on to it long enough to prove that it's there or prove where it is exactly. Again, I'm using analogies here that fall short but you get the idea.

Here's a wild thought for you that I've entertained for a few years, or at least since I attempted to read Brian Greene....what if the love that exists between two people is actually tangible somehow? Far out right? Even for me but I can't help but wonder in light of string theories and what we think we know about quarks and preens. This gets into subtle energy which is worth an entirely separate thread but it's fun to wonder about.

Since you strike me as a seeker of truth all I ask is that you remain open to the possibility of God. And not as some anthropomorphic construct like the ones we find in sacred texts but something inconceivable, something or someone always more than any word we could ever use to describe it. There's no harm in that. It's a wild universe out there. It's no small miracle that we can even know it or communicate what we know about it. Imagine, conscious material? Amazing. Awareness of our awareness? Even the possibility for language? Sounds attributed to agreed upon meaning? What wonder when you take a minute to consider it. What mystery. Sort of like the power of love as a human phenomenon in our world.

After Blaise Pascal died they found a slip of paper sewn into his coat jacket noting the date of his "conversion" or profound experience of the wholly other. He had one word to describe what words could not, he chose

"Fire!"
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Post 28 Apr 2016, 5:59 am

We see its impact, we see evidence for it all around hopefully but there's no proof that an entity called love exists in the world. It's not quantifiable


http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-04/s ... rain-scans

Don't mean to show disrespect to your conversation. Just thought you'd like to know that, in fact, science has come some way to actually establishing the physical activities that trigger, or perhaps react, when the emotion of love is felt...

Brown is a professor of neurology at Albert Einstein College of Medicine. She uses an MRI machine to study the brains of the smitten. She’s found that when people who are madly in love think of their sweethearts, many parts of the brain are activated, but one thing all her study subjects had in common was activation in a “primitive” part of the brain just above the brainstem
.
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Post 28 Apr 2016, 6:24 am

Well of course. First, I was using an analogy. Second, why wouldn't sentient beings demonstrate brain activity when experiencing such an emotion? Third, the article addresses romantic love. I wonder which part of the brain picks up sacrificial love or agape love when it is received or given freely?

I suppose there are more than a few people out there who have convinced themselves that another person loves them when really they've been played by the other person (see Chris Isaac). Sure you'll pick up activity in the brain to suggest that the person is having an emotion but in this example, it wouldn't be real.

The dynamism of love freely shared between two people can't be reduced.
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Post 28 Apr 2016, 11:35 am

dag
Sure you'll pick up activity in the brain to suggest that the person is having an emotion but in this example, it wouldn't be real.

It would feel real.

By the way, they've also conducted the brain mapping research on on dogs with their owners.. The identical response was found in dogs brains as in humans..

More evidence that "All Dogs Go To Heaven"....?
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Post 28 Apr 2016, 3:26 pm

Freeman and Danivon,

I've enjoyed the discussion with the two of you here. I usually don't write this much or as frequently. Thanks for your input. What an interesting online community Redscape can be.

It's probably time I focus elsewhere now. See you on another thread.
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Post 28 Apr 2016, 4:22 pm

It was an interesting discussion Dags and I had started to reply to your last post but realized I was getting repetitive (Atheist: "you have no evidence; don't you know evolution disproved religion; Occam's Razor means there need not be God." Christian: "You are ignoring/missing the metaphysical/spiritual world because of your ego/pride/materialism. Repeat ad infinitum.)
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Post 28 Apr 2016, 9:16 pm

For the record Freeman, I don't think you are egotistical, prideful or materialistic because of what you believe to be true. On the contrary, I have a great deal of respect for you and the others here on Redscape.
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Post 29 Apr 2016, 12:38 am

You're right--I was probably trying to be too clever and my description of typical atheist/Christian discussions was not apropos to the discussion here. My bad.