danivon wrote:

Ray Jay wrote:

danivon wrote:What if many of the Palestinians are themselves descendents of people living in Israel thousands of years ago?.

Like billions of other people on the planet they have to live in a country that is different than the country of their ancestors.

hmmm. But apparently there have to be exceptions based on 2000+ year old history.

Yes, but you are not comparing olives with olives. Perhaps there are some Palestinians who have Canaanite ancestry; I would guess that even more have Judean ancestry. DNA would be interesting here as there is probably also Greek, Roman, Persian, Egyptian, Turkish, and other DNA mixed in as various groups migrated in or conquered the region. However, prior to modern times, the affinity was Arab based on Mohammed's conquests of about 650 CE. Presumably there is a healthy mix of Arabian genetics within the population.

However, the Jewish/Israeli case is much stronger. The affinity is 3,000 years old -- or at least 2,500 years for the super sceptics. The affinity has been preserved that long, it has been continuous, and it hasn't gone away in spite of all of the atrocities. It's always based on facts and circumstances, but when you add to the 3,000 year history the fact that modern Israel's population includes the individuals or descendants of 1,000,000 Holocaust refugees, 750,000 Arab refugees, and 1,000,000 Soviet refugees, the case is a slam dunk. Yes, there have to be exceptions.

Danivon:

Yes, Intifadas have consequences.

So do illegal settlement expansions. Illegal under Israeli law at one point.

Yes, I agree the settlements are problematic.

Ray Jay wrote:Yes, I agree the settlements are problematic.

Apparently, for Obama, they are more problematic than anything else in the world.

While nothing is done about Russian aggression, the slaughter of hundreds of thousands in Aleppo, nor the creeping assertion of authority by China over growing areas of the Pacific, the settlements are worth stabbing a democratic ally in the back.

Obama's foreign policy: treat your friends like enemies and your enemies like friends.

This does seem like lose-lose-lose to me.

Trying to be objective on this issue for a moment: is it weird that Obama (and later today Kerry) are providing their policy guidelines on the Middle East now. Obama has been in office for 8 years. Now it's just a parting shot. What good does it do for the outgoing POTUS and SOS saying what they think should be done when it is very clear that the incoming POTUS sees the world differently. Talk about mixed messages. How can it be helpful if the Palestinians will be more intransigent based on what Obama says and does and the Israelis will be more intransigent based on what Trump says.

Who is Obama and Kerry's audience. The Democratic Party? Europe? The Noble Prize Committee? Why are they doing this now when they've been in office for so many years?

Simple, Obama wants his "mark" on the world stage. It is and always has been about how he looks. The man is not as smarmy as Trump but make no mistake, he is every bit as egotistical if not more so! He wants his position to be known and he has no problem if it gets in the way of the next administration or if it really even matters, it's simply about his position and how he looks to others (the Nobel committee especially)

ray

Trying to be objective on this issue for a moment: is it weird that Obama (and later today Kerry) are providing their policy guidelines on the Middle East now. Obama has been in office for 8 years

.
The policy of a two state solution has been US policy since Lyndon Johnson.... US opposition to settlements has been consistent for 54 years.

The Reagan Plan states that ‘the United States will not support the use of any additional land for the purpose of settlements during the transition period (5 years after Palestinian election for a self-governing authority). Indeed, the immediate adoption of a settlements freeze by Israel, more than any other action, could create the confidence needed for wider participation in these talks. Further settlement activity is in no way necessary for the security of Israel and only diminishes the confidence of the Arabs that a final outcome can be free and fairly negotiated.”
Reagan Plan – September 1982

Our position on the settlements is very clear. We do not think they are legal.”

President Jimmy Carter – April 1980 interview

“Although we have expressed our views to the Foreign Ministry and are confident there can be little doubt among GOI leaders as to our continuing opposition to any Israeli settlements in the occupied areas, we believe it would be timely and useful for the Embassy to restate in strongest terms the US position on this question. You should refer to Prime Minister Eshkol's Knesset statement and our awareness of internal Israeli pressures for settling civilians in occupied areas. The GOI is aware of our continuing concern that nothing be done in the occupied areas which might prejudice the search for a peace settlement. By setting up civilian or quasi-civilian outposts in the occupied areas the GOI adds serious complications to the eventual task of drawing up a peace settlement. Further, the transfer of civilians to occupied areas, whether or not in settlements which are under military control, is contrary to Article 49 of the Geneva Convention, which states "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.’” "Airgram from the Department of State to the Embassy in Israel."

Smith, Louis J. (Ed.). Foreign Relations of the United States, 1964-1968, V. 20, Arab-Israeli Dispute 1967-1968. DC: GPO, 2001
http://www.cmep.org/content/us-statemen ... ort#Reagan


The UN security council vote was proposed by New Zealand and Malaysia and 14 nations supported the resolution. Including Spain, Great Britain, France Japan Uruguay and Ukraine...
This is not an Israel / US issue.
It is most of the world oppossing an illegal occupation, peacefully. Through an international body who's purpose is to try to peacefully settle international disputes....
Israel is isolated on this issue, because they deserve to be isolated on this issue.
Encroaching settlements do not increase the security of Israel. They do not increase the validity of Israelis claims to the land they are established upon. They only provoke the occupied people of Palestine.

If Trump listens to Mattis ....

He also warned that the United States urgently needed to press the Israelis and the Palestinians to advance to a two-state solution.
“Either it ceases to be a Jewish state or you say the Arabs don’t get to vote — apartheid. That didn’t work too well the last time I saw that practiced in a country,” Mattis said.

Ricky:

The policy of a two state solution has been US policy since Lyndon Johnson.... US opposition to settlements has been consistent for 54 years.

Your math is a bit off, but you are correct that a 2-state solution is US policy..

The US policy change is that in the past US policy has been that the Israelis cannot get a fair hearing in the UN, so the way to solve the issue is for the Palestinians and Israelis to engage in direct talks with US and other party assistance as necessary. However, the resolution thrusts the UN into the equation and weakens the US role. Obama has opted for more UN power and less US (i.e. Trump) power.

RayJay wrote:

But the Palestinians and Arab governments have shown years of bad faith

I've been keeping up with this thread and spotted this comment. It stopped me in my tracks.

Ray Jay, settlement expansion is integral to Israeli identify. It is part of the fabric of who they are as a nation. They have stalled countless peace talks in order to continue with this expansion, only to renege on coming to the peace table at the last minute, claiming their reason for doing so was due to Palestinian terrorism.

The world community has had enough and has been calling them on their bullshit. Obama is the only US president I can remember who didn't play their game. It has been refreshing to say the least.

Kudos to Kerry for speaking out about the most recent settlements that will surely doom any chance for peace anytime soon. Blame is rightly placed directly on Netanyahu's shoulders. The man is a cur.

The bigger picture of course has to do with population war. That is what drives the Israelis to push for one illegal settlement after the next. We've all watched them do this since the early 1980s. I'm sure it went on before then as well.

Israel's guaranteed existence for the future is directly linked to math. Simply put, their surrounding Muslim neighbors out populate them and they know it.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/02/population-israelpalestine-projected/

The pageantry we are observing play out in the media is directly linked back to the population war. Netanyahu wants his legacy to include his efforts to secure Israel's future on this front.

Obama has driven me mad for lots of reasons. On this issue he's got it right.

dag hammarsjkold wrote:Kudos to Kerry for speaking out about the most recent settlements that will surely doom any chance for peace anytime soon. Blame is rightly placed directly on Netanyahu's shoulders. The man is a cur.

Yes, oh yes. That's why Obama's team intervened in the last Israeli election and tried to defeat Netanyahu. He won. http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elec ... m-1.639158

So, after Obama "pulled a Russia" and lost, he decided he would be paternalistic and deign to tell Israel what is in her best interests. He and Kerry are anti-Semitic. They love Iran. They trust Iran.

Israel is "the problem." "Settlements" are a bigger impediment to peace than terrorism. That's a bizarre notion, given that Israel has always traded land (including settlements) for peace.

The bigger picture of course has to do with population war. That is what drives the Israelis to push for one illegal settlement after the next. We've all watched them do this since the early 1980s. I'm sure it went on before then as well.

"Illegal settlement?" Who defines "illegal?" Oh, the same "international community" that doesn't give a fig about Aleppo and yet has the time to pass 20 anti-Israel resolutions in a year?

Israel's guaranteed existence for the future is directly linked to math. Simply put, their surrounding Muslim neighbors out populate them and they know it.

Please, do explain how buildings = more Jews. Is that some kind of new reproduction method?

The pageantry we are observing play out in the media is directly linked back to the population war. Netanyahu wants his legacy to include his efforts to secure Israel's future on this front.

There's only one moron concerned with his legacy: Obama. Well, and his toy poodle, Kerry.

Doctor Fate wrote:He and Kerry are anti-Semitic. They love Iran.

Oh, please. This kind of stuff just undermines the arguments you're trying to make. There's a lot of disagreement within the Jewish community on settlements, two-state solution, etc. To label someone an anti-Semite because they don't agree with a policy solution in the Middle-East, well, then you're also labeling a lot of Jews as anti-Semites. And certainly Kerry and Obama don't love Iran. They made a diplomatic decision, and while I don't fully understand it, it was a decision based upon the interests of the United States as they saw it, not love.

geojanes wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:He and Kerry are anti-Semitic. They love Iran.

Oh, please. This kind of stuff just undermines the arguments you're trying to make. There's a lot of disagreement within the Jewish community on settlements, two-state solution, etc. To label someone an anti-Semite because they don't agree with a policy solution in the Middle-East, well, then you're also labeling a lot of Jews as anti-Semites. And certainly Kerry and Obama don't love Iran. They made a diplomatic decision, and while I don't fully understand it, it was a decision based upon the interests of the United States as they saw it, not love.

They may not "love" Iran, but they could not do more to boost Iran's power and position if that was their ultimate goal. So, I'll settle for they just hate Israel.

So, tell me about the big split in the Jewish community on the UN resolution that Obama/Kerry virtually wrote and approved?

They would blow a hole in Netanyahu's head if they could. They would give Jerusalem to the Palestinians if they could.

Call it whatever you want.

Dag:

They have stalled countless peace talks in order to continue with this expansion, only to renege on coming to the peace table at the last minute, claiming their reason for doing so was due to Palestinian terrorism.

I don't view this statement as factually correct. The record is that the Arab / Palestinians have refused to negotiate with Israel. They wouldn't negotiate over Gaza ... they walked out of Camp David ... they refuse to negotiate now. I do agree with you that Israel has crossed the line with settlements ... but the Israelis continue to be on record as willing to negotiate, and it is the Palestinians who have refused to do so. (Reviewing your information sources may be helpful here.)

The other part of the equation is that since the Palestinians aren't ruled democratically, the negotiation of any agreement is iffy at best. Whereas the Israelis have a democratically elected government, and can have a national referendum if need be, the Palestinians have no mechanism to do so. Even if the Palestinians do negotiate -- which they haven't -- there's no way to know for sure whether the negotiation has any meaning.

Natanyahu's latest political success?

I could care less. He's still a cur and always will be.


Who defines "illegal settlements"

4th Geneva Convention and me.


Fate asked:

Please, do explain how buildings = more Jews. Is that some kind of new reproduction method?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s_Post-Soviet_aliyah

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/03/jewish-immigration-israel-jumps-this-year-ukrainians-russians-europe-paris-attacks

Where would you like all of your new found friends to live exactly Fate?

As for Obama's legacy, he'll be remembered as one of our greatest presidents and here's why...

He's half black, and he saved our economy. In so doing, yes I'm going to say it Fate, hold your ears, Obama saved the world!

Under the administration of brainless, the market crashed under its own unbridled greed. My President then inherited what was a worldwide catastrophe and got it turned around. How he did it wasn't pretty. But he did it. And that is his legacy. All the rest, including getting Bin Laden, is fluff.

Oh but there's more Fate, stay with me, keep reading...

Like Lincoln, Obama's contribution to the country and world will not be appreciated until long after everyone here is dead. Like Lincoln, the voices of detractors like Fate will eventually disappear. And all the econ eggheads will piecemeal together the multilayered moving parts of the crash and recovery to reveal that without Obama, world markets would have crashed.

Try not to have a heart attack before you respond to this one Fate.

I thought this was an interesting take on Netanyahu's strategy with regard to the two state solution. I have no idea if it is an accurate assessment or not. It is just something that might be considered with facts that we do know about Israel continuing to expand settlements and why they continue to do so.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.al-monit ... ent=safari

Here is an article from the New York Times about the expansion of settlements.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015 ... .html?_r=0

Settlements poised for expansion:

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usatoday ... ent=safari

18 million added to 88 million already spent by Israel on settlements:

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usatoday ... ent=safari

Getting back to Netanyahu what is his plan? Judging from his comments it seems pretty clear that if there ever were a deal outlying settlements would be kept within the Palestinian zone. I think it can be reasonably inferred that this would require Israeli forces to secure those settlements. So a Palestinian "state" would have Israeli forces dividing it into separate enclaves with Israel security forces throughout. That is consistent with the strategy described in Al-Monitor above. I am not sure what kind of state is that.

I think if settlements are being expanded as a tactic to prevent any kind of separate Palestinian state then the US was right to abstain.

And another thing...

72 hours for the expelled Russians is far too much time. They should have been given 24 hours instead.

And while we're at it, I say we expel their drug addict athletes who train here back with them as well.

And who can forget our intelligence community? I say they go too. A year or two in Russia might be a fine learning opportunity.

After all, we were simply out spied.

According to data from Israel’s Central Bureau of Statistics, the annual growth rate for the settler population (excluding East Jerusalem) in 2013 was more than two and a half times higher than that of the overall population in Israel: 4.4 percent and 1.9 percent, respectively. Kerry, in his speech Wednesday, noted that the number of Israeli settlers in the West Bank, not including East Jerusalem, has increased by nearly 270,000 since the Oslo peace accords (signed in 1993 and 1995), including 100,000 just since 2009, when Obama took office.

freeman3

I am not sure what kind of state is that.

Bantustan.