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Post 08 Dec 2015, 10:22 pm

If you avoid the media soundbites that dominate the airwaves and actually listen to the man, it seems to me that Trump makes some valid points. We are at war. We are at war with people who call themselves Muslims. Why on earth should we accept anybody and everybody into our country during a time of war without knowing who they are?

Ever heard of Belgistan? Guess what, it's here.

http://www1.cbn.com/media/video/embedplayer.php?bcid=1509282970001

I'm curious to learn if there are any redscapers out there who have actually taken the time to listen to Trump's madness. I find that when his positions are not hijacked by soundbites, he comes across as somewhat logical.

Doesn't anyone here agree with me?

He's not saying never allow Muslims into the country. He is saying that for now, and until our security improves, why take the chance during wartime?

Are we truly at war? I think we are. Granted it's a different kind of war like never before or is it? Haven't we been down the religious war path in the past?

Where are the so called moderate Muslims? In my opinion, if they exist, they are losing. They don't seem to be as media savvy as their counterparts.

So I ask you, is Trump really that off on this? I"m not so sure.
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Post 09 Dec 2015, 12:27 am

Trump is a demagogue. A definition of demagogue is a political leader "who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices." Here, he is appealing to prejudice against the other. He is stoking prejudice against people who are different from the majority white population. I have a hard time believing that a mainstream political candidate could say the things he does without being done as a candidate.

Yes, a lot of reasonable Americas are understandably frustrated at continuing terrorism by a small number of Muslim extremists who continue to want to attack the West. But we cannot punish the many for the sins of the few. Yes, if we don't take in any Muslims then none of those people can attack America. But is that right? No. It goes against our values in treating people based on who they are as individuals not on their membership in a religion or other group. We have to have the courage to not give in to our fears and not treat Muslims differently.
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Post 09 Dec 2015, 2:32 am

You do not help the moderate muslims to prevail by joining in with the hysterical demonisation of muslims.

What Trump calls for is dangerous. It is also impossible, because you cannot reliably determine religion at the border.

"Home of the brave"?
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Post 09 Dec 2015, 5:55 am

By the way, the source of Trump's soundbites is the man himself, he is well versed in media campaigning and PR and some of the quotes are not just his "off the cuff" idiocy, but from his press releases & policy platform.

By the way, his recent statement about London is total rubbish. Just as it was when a "security expert" on Fox made similar statements about Birmingham. But it is just the kind of "truthiness" that the gullible will believe and assimilate alongside prejudice and fear.
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Post 09 Dec 2015, 6:53 am

Dag:
Doesn't anyone here agree with me?


Not me.
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Post 09 Dec 2015, 8:06 am

Yes I have listened to Trump.

No, I do not agree with him. His idea of governance is dictatorial and divisive. I see Trump doing the same thing on the right as Obama does on the left. He has little experience, much like Obama.
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Post 09 Dec 2015, 9:11 am

It's irrelevant, because he isn't going to win the nomination and everybody knows it. The only really interesting aspect of this Trump phenomenon is the question of whether he's going to help the eventual nominee by making whatever he says come across as reasonable and sane by comparison or hinder him by tarnishing the Republican brand too much in the interim.
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Post 09 Dec 2015, 9:59 am

At this point I can't see myself voting for him but he does raise issues that deserve discussion.

I do have a feeling he will win the nomination and the presidency.
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Post 09 Dec 2015, 10:01 am

Sassenach wrote:It's irrelevant, because he isn't going to win the nomination and everybody knows it. The only really interesting aspect of this Trump phenomenon is the question of whether he's going to help the eventual nominee by making whatever he says come across as reasonable and sane by comparison or hinder him by tarnishing the Republican brand too much in the interim.


There's a good chance he'll run as a third party candidate which will probably hand the election over to the Democrats. That's relevant.
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Post 09 Dec 2015, 10:09 am

Well, he does have a good shot for the nomination. before the weekend his polling numbers were going up, and for some reason these outbursts seem to serve to boost him when sensible people would be turned off.

But I hope that the American people are between them wise enough not to elect him President. I know that a lot of Republicans hate Hillary, but would they really prefer the carpetbagger Trump to her?
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Post 10 Dec 2015, 3:49 pm

Polling showing a lot of Republican support for Trump's positions on Muslims. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... poll-finds

And we are now seeing Nomination race polls that include (but only by a day or so) the period after his "Ban Muslims from entering the USA" policy was unveiled: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-donald ... e-sanders/

For those who think he can't get the nomination...

CBS wrote:Trump voters continue to be more firm in their support. Fifty-one percent of his backers say their minds are made up about him, compared to just a quarter of voters who support a candidate other than Trump.

Trump leads among both men and women. He has more than a 20-point lead among non-college graduates (and a smaller lead among those with a college degree).

But Cruz has made inroads with evangelicals. Carson led with this group in October, but now Cruz and Trump are running neck and neck among them; the two candidates are also close among very conservative Republicans.
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Post 10 Dec 2015, 3:53 pm

Yes, he can win the nomination, but he can't win the election. His negatives are too great.

He also will have a reverse coat tail effect and create challenges for many Republican legislative and State candidates.
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Post 10 Dec 2015, 4:48 pm

Ray Jay wrote:Yes, he can win the nomination, but he can't win the election. His negatives are too great.
I agree. Although I guess Sanders v Trump would be quite a polarised election contest.

He also will have a reverse coat tail effect and create challenges for many Republican legislative and State candidates.
Potentially. This would be a bigger challenge (albeit a shorter-lived one) than the Tea Party insurgency. And in a way it's related to it as another challenge to the Republican mainstream.
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Post 11 Dec 2015, 7:29 am

I think you have to view this as a dark chapter in American politics. I tend to be very optimistic, but one has to see this for what it is, which is a virulent anti-minority jingoistic, racist attack. I thought 90% of us were better than that, but apparently it is only 75% of so. That's a lot of misinformed racism in our midst. This is serious and cannot be dismissed as just another political discussion.

In another thread we were talking about which is more prevalent, anti-Muslim or anti-Jewish activity. Let's not see this as a competition, but as something that is extremely troubling either way. My synagogue continues to get crank calls about Hitler or the holocaust or whatever. I'm sure we are not the only ones. If more than 200 people are at an event we hire a police detail. But it is not unusual to see 75 people on a Friday night or 100 at a Saturday morning service, and I sometimes get nervous. The synagogue and the Hebrew school have security systems and security procedures, but none of this is foolproof. If you draw a Venn diagram of anti-Semites and crazy people, there is quite a bit of overlap. But nowadays there is quite a bit of overlap between anti-Islam and crazy people too. Each is as bad as the other.

We can reasonably disagree about all sort of things on these boards. We can have endless discussions about Mideast politics, and economic policy, etc. But we all have to denounce racism and anti-anything ism whenever we see it. This is how it festers and it is virulent if left untreated.

There's no place for Trump in our political world.

An uplifting story from our friends up north. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/p ... -1.3338909
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Post 11 Dec 2015, 9:25 am

Ray Jay wrote:I think you have to view this as a dark chapter in American politics. I tend to be very optimistic, but one has to see this for what it is, which is a virulent anti-minority jingoistic, racist attack. I thought 90% of us were better than that, but apparently it is only 75% of so. That's a lot of misinformed racism in our midst. This is serious and cannot be dismissed as just another political discussion.
Yep, fear and ignorance are a potent and toxic mixture.

In another thread we were talking about which is more prevalent, anti-Muslim or anti-Jewish activity. Let's not see this as a competition, but as something that is extremely troubling either way. My synagogue continues to get crank calls about Hitler or the holocaust or whatever. I'm sure we are not the only ones. If more than 200 people are at an event we hire a police detail. But it is not unusual to see 75 people on a Friday night or 100 at a Saturday morning service, and I sometimes get nervous. The synagogue and the Hebrew school have security systems and security procedures, but none of this is foolproof. If you draw a Venn diagram of anti-Semites and crazy people, there is quite a bit of overlap. But nowadays there is quite a bit of overlap between anti-Islam and crazy people too. Each is as bad as the other.
Exactly. It's not a case of scoring points about who has it worst.

If a crazy/ideologically motivated anti-semite attacks and kills Jews for being Jews it is a tragedy and we must condemn it. eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_ ... r_shooting

And when a a crazy/ideologically motivated anti-Muslim attacks and kills Muslims (or people who "look" Muslim) it is just as tragic and needs to be equally condemned. eg: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/j ... nge-killer

Both are on the rise. Some, it has to be said, comes from the very same source - white racists and fascists.

We can reasonably disagree about all sort of things on these boards. We can have endless discussions about Mideast politics, and economic policy, etc. But we all have to denounce racism and anti-anything ism whenever we see it. This is how it festers and it is virulent if left untreated.
Yep. It is wrong to claim that these are just lone incidents that are isolated. We know that anti-semitism has a long and deep history, and the culture it engenders has often led to violence.

But all such bigotries have the same root - fear of the "other".

There's no place for Trump in our political world.
If only that were the case. There is always a market for those who play to the prejudices and fears of the masses.

An uplifting story from our friends up north. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/p ... -1.3338909
Very welcome news.