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Post 18 Jul 2016, 5:48 am

Now Kemal Ataturk was such a reformer and he created the modern Turkish state. But instead of that example spreading to other states it's Turkey that appears to be back-sliding.


He also led / presided over two genocides, one against the Armenians and one against the Greeks, I recently learned about the one against the Greeks of Anatolia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide
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Post 18 Jul 2016, 5:50 am

Doctor Fate wrote:

:frown:

You can't "control" an ideology. You can only kill its adherents and force their surrender.


That seems right to me as it relates to the territory controlled by ISIS. We've let this cancer metastasize and as a result, individuals see it as a viable ideology. Although we cannot eliminate terrorism, I do think destroying the ISIS Caliphate would weaken it substantially.
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Post 18 Jul 2016, 11:11 am

I wasnt just trying to justify Ataturk's overall policies. The Armenian Genocide and the the expulsion of Greeks/Genocide from their residence on the west coast of Turkey were horrible events. You do realize that after WWI Greek forces tried to take territory from western Turkey and committed their own atrocities. Not on the scale of what the Turks did to the Greeks but neither side had clean hands.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919–22)

Also seeing as Ataturk was leading the defense in Gallipoli in 1915 how was he involved in the Armenian Genocide in 1915? There were later atrocities against Armenians and he could have been involved or responsible for them but the main Armenian Genocide would seem to be the responsibility of others. Since he was leading the forces trying to expel Greek forces out of Turkey and there occurred atrocities of Greeks in Western Turkey, his responsibility for attocities against Greeks is more clear.

Anyway, I assume you are not making the point that it was Turkey's move to secularism that led to these genocides. The ONLY point I was making is that Turkey under Ataturk is the only Muslim state that has separated church and state in an acknowledgment that is necessary thing to do for a modern state.
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Post 18 Jul 2016, 12:21 pm

Ray Jay wrote:
Now Kemal Ataturk was such a reformer and he created the modern Turkish state. But instead of that example spreading to other states it's Turkey that appears to be back-sliding.


He also led / presided over two genocides, one against the Armenians and one against the Greeks, I recently learned about the one against the Greeks of Anatolia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide
Putting the Armenian genocide on Ataturk is very poor history. He was, as noted, defending Gallipoli (on the European side of the Straits) from British-ANZAC invasion. The Sultan was in charge, through the Ottoman governors of the expulsions of Greek and Armenian people from Anatolia - partly as a reaction to the alliances against Turkey in WWI.

You can argue that Ataturk failed to stop atrocities on taking power, and that both sides in the Greco-Turkish war of 1918-20 committed crimes against humanity for which he and the Turks should accept responsibility alongside the Greek leaders. But the movement he led was in fact spurred on by Greek invasion following the granting of territory by the Entente Powers post-WWI, so we (Britain in particular) have a fair amount of blame.

Speak to a Greek and they were blameless (likewise a Turk). That pretty much shows things haven't moved on much in popular consciousness in both communities in 100 years - and many more.

Of course, seldom has great reform been achieved without much strife. The Christian Reformation led to many massacres in the 16th and 17th Century. The US couldn't abolish slavery without it's bloodiest conflict ever (proportionally to population). The above lauded Meiji Restoration was fairly peaceful at the time, rebellions were swiftly and brutally crushed soon after, and it also laid the foundations for the aggressive Japanese militarism and nationalism that we ended up having to fight in the 1940s.

When it comes to Islamic Reformation, be careful what you wish for.
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Post 18 Jul 2016, 12:34 pm

Danivon:
Putting the Armenian genocide on Ataturk is very poor history. He was, as noted, defending Gallipoli (on the European side of the Straits) from British-ANZAC invasion. The Sultan was in charge, through the Ottoman governors of the expulsions of Greek and Armenian people from Anatolia - partly as a reaction to the alliances against Turkey in WWI.

You can argue that Ataturk failed to stop atrocities on taking power, and that both sides in the Greco-Turkish war of 1918-20 committed crimes against humanity for which he and the Turks should accept responsibility alongside the Greek leaders. But the movement he led was in fact spurred on by Greek invasion following the granting of territory by the Entente Powers post-WWI, so we (Britain in particular) have a fair amount of blame.


Yes, you and Freeman are correct that he is not primarily responsible for the Armenian genocide. I can see now on the web that there is still much debate on the extent of his involvement in later years as Turkish atrocities continued vis-à-vis both Greeks and Armenians. This was all news to me.
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Post 18 Jul 2016, 1:08 pm

Well, it would be nice that if instead of a reform of Islam that they stop believing in non-existent things altogether...
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Post 18 Jul 2016, 1:36 pm

freeman3 wrote:Well, it would be nice that if instead of a reform of Islam that they stop believing in non-existent things altogether...

Humans love to believe in non-existent things. Move them from one and they just leap to another.
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 10:07 am

dag hammarsjkold wrote:I wonder about that Doc Fate.

I don't think the West has ever attempted to call Fundamentalistic Islamic theology into question. I've mentioned before that Islam has never had to deal with its own version of an Enlightenment. Perhaps dealing with their own version of "the turn to the self" in the modern post/modern age would yield interesting results?

I'm beginning to think a key to the Islamic puzzle is theology and calling their so called theologians out.


I'm not opposed to engaging in a war of propaganda. It's likely we need to do that.

However, waiting for an Enlightenment, or even trying to foist one upon Islam, seems a fool's errand. They are already involved in internecine struggle--Shia vs. Sunni--that has no end in sight.

In the meantime, there are hundreds of thousands, or millions, or more, of jihadist fanatics. They must be dealt with or we will continue to see attacks all over the West--France, Germany, Turkey, the US, the UK, rinse and repeat.
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 10:08 am

danivon wrote:
freeman3 wrote:Well, it would be nice that if instead of a reform of Islam that they stop believing in non-existent things altogether...

Humans love to believe in non-existent things. Move them from one and they just leap to another.


Like matter that organized itself and Life that just happened--non-existent things.
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 10:17 am

i tried to find it online to prove it in true Redscape fashion but couldn't.

I spent a month in Turkey almost 7 years ago with Rotarian families on the west coast. I remember visiting a site whereby Greeks had been expelled by the Turks. Apparently, on a day in May to commemorate this tragedy, Turkey allows Greeks to visit and Greece allows Turks to visit Greece. Apparently the expulsions took place on both sides. Passports are checked but pushed through without red tape. The day is a day of remembering and forgiving. It was the latter reason that struck me as so important.
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 11:24 am

Doctor Fate wrote:
danivon wrote:
freeman3 wrote:Well, it would be nice that if instead of a reform of Islam that they stop believing in non-existent things altogether...

Humans love to believe in non-existent things. Move them from one and they just leap to another.


Like matter that organized itself and Life that just happened--non-existent things.
If that is what you believe others think, then another good example...
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 11:26 am

I know it's a different topic but I did not start it and one should NEVER poke fun at others religious beliefs...
Humans love to believe in non-existent things. Move them from one and they just leap to another.

So you believe in pure science?
Science says you can not create something from nothing, Big Bang? ...cool, but where did the dust come from? You want to believe dust was always there but not God, God makes sense wile dust that materialized from nothing, then created a big bang, then formed life, etc makes perfect sense?

Sorry but THOSE are the beliefs of crazy people not the other way around.
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 11:44 am

I wasn't limiting it to religion. Some science has been wacky. People have all kinds of beliefs in ghosts, angels, lucky totems, their sports teams, politics, that you can lose weight without using diet and exercise, etc etc.

And hey, we can mock religious beliefs, just as much as any other belief. I don't care that you mock science (even with your limited grasp of it). Stopping mockery or criticism of religion is what the enemies of freedom want.

Besides, I don't "believe" in "pure science". I think that the scientific method is currently our best way to explain the previously unknown, and that it can always - must always - involve testing and questioning. It is a way to drive out facts, and eliminate false conjecture. And it does not have a fixed view on the origins of the universe or life - just as set of as yet not disproved theories.
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 12:29 pm

danivon wrote:If that is what you believe others think, then another good example...


So good at pretending not to insult anyone, aren't you?

freeman3 went after Islam, you expanded it to all religion, and then feigned innocence.

Well done, but observed.
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Post 19 Jul 2016, 12:31 pm

danivon wrote:And hey, we can mock religious beliefs, just as much as any other belief. I don't care that you mock science (even with your limited grasp of it). Stopping mockery or criticism of religion is what the enemies of freedom want.


Please. I cannot abide this PC pretense that somehow the attacks are not predominately Muslim. What these "enemies of freedom" want is submission to their version of Islam and nothing less.