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Post 13 Jun 2016, 2:26 pm

rickyp wrote:Of the last 10 mass shootings only 3 were by Muslims.


If that's true, that's still WAY out of control, considering the percentage of our populace that is Muslim.

And this last guy, his wife says, had mental health issues. As did one of his coworkers. ISIS may have only been a token.


She said that because he beat her. However, that is totally in keeping with strict adherence to Islam.

Because like the 7 other mass shootings, the culprit was mentally unstable first and foremost. (Leaving San Bernadino out as an exception)


No. Tennessee? Muslim kid.

What 10 shootings are you talking about?

But here's the thing, if gun control is improved through responsible gun ownership laws, all are affected equally. The mentally unstable young man in the thatre in oregon or the mentally unstable young man in the Florida club.


Yes, they will affect everyone who OBEYS the law. However, they will affect no one who intends to BREAK the law.
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Post 13 Jun 2016, 2:38 pm

rickyp wrote:fate
The problem isn't a lack of laws. It's a lack of identifying an ideology bent on murder and curtailing that ideology.

You aren't seriously suggesting that the FBI and intelligence agencies aren't trying their damndest to identify potential extremists? And that they don't have enormous resources to do so?
They interviewed the Florida shooter twice....


And, did nothing.

The problem is, that even when they identify someone, they can't stop these people from buying weapons. And they certainly can't afford 24 hour surveillance over everyone.


We can afford electronic (and other) surveillance on those KNOWN to be threats--like this Islamic terrorist.

Besides, the muslim extremists are still a minor subset of the mass shootings, and an even much smaller subset of the deaths by gun violence.


30% is a pretty significant "subset," not a "minor" one for sure.

And, if any of you liberals gave a hoot about gun violence, you'd start with Chicago.

The choke point to stop guns getting into irresponsible hands is at the sale point. The way to qualify who is an appropriate owner of guns is through responsible gun laws like I've suggested.


That's an opinion.

No one appreciated the cost of improving car safety in the sixites and seventies. But the improvements in the safe operation of cars by increased regulation, design and enforcement have been remarkable. It should be the same with cars.


You are comparing non-intentional deaths with intentionally-caused deaths.
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Post 13 Jun 2016, 2:47 pm

rickyp wrote:fate
He was "bisexual" and had a history of criminal action.

Was he a radicalized bisexual?


We don't know that he was actually going to attack in West Hollywood. He previously threatened an ex-boyfriend at gunpoint. Who knows what this was about? It could be nothing more than a "radical" attempt to avenge a spurning--or it could be non-violent. We don't know.

We do know what motivated the Orlando shooting--even though the President couldn't be bothered to mention it.
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Post 14 Jun 2016, 5:28 am

Doctor Fate wrote:
rickyp wrote:fate
He was "bisexual" and had a history of criminal action.

Was he a radicalized bisexual?


We don't know that he was actually going to attack in West Hollywood. He previously threatened an ex-boyfriend at gunpoint. Who knows what this was about? It could be nothing more than a "radical" attempt to avenge a spurning--or it could be non-violent. We don't know.

We do know what motivated the Orlando shooting--even though the President couldn't be bothered to mention it.

I saw the President mention it and call it an act of terror. However, the motivation may be complicated if it was actually about a closeted self-hating gay man. So we don't know exactly what the motivation was prime (and may never really know as he is dead)

Interestingly, he apparently linked his actions to three groups, ISIS, Al Nusra and the Mojahadeen. These three groups are all fighting in Syria. But against each other (the Shia Mojahadeen are with Assad, Al Nusra flip about and swap between working with the rebels and not, but see ISIS as an opposing breakaway).

I think that indicates he was not entirely clear as to which organisation he was "working" for.

Quit with the Obama-blaming.
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Post 14 Jun 2016, 6:23 am

I'll bet you can't find examples where the culprit was stopped before they were out of ammunition or leaving.

here are 12 examples:
http://controversialtimes.com/issues/co ... with-guns/

and what about that Parliament Building shooting a couple years ago in Ottawa?
we also can have no idea how many attempts may have been turned away when the attacker noticed a place might have had armed security, to assume it had no affect would be a bit delusional.
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Post 14 Jun 2016, 11:37 am

I don't know that we need to parse his motivations that much. Who knows why one really does something like this. Ok he was uncomfortable with his sexuality--did that have nothing to do with the fact that Islam does not tolerate homosexuality? He may not have understood the complexities of the rival Islamic groups but did he draw inspiration from them? He said he did. These radical groups say the West is decadent and has decadent values--one can imagine that would be a convenient scapegoat for a Muslim conflicted between his sexuality and religion.

I guess I believe that but for radical Islamic preaching war against the west, but for all the prior attacks that this attack would not have occurred. Whatever else drove his guy, he was a disaffected Muslim who drew inspiration from radical Islam.
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Post 14 Jun 2016, 1:49 pm

freeman3 wrote:I don't know that we need to parse his motivations that much. Who knows why one really does something like this. Ok he was uncomfortable with his sexuality--did that have nothing to do with the fact that Islam does not tolerate homosexuality? He may not have understood the complexities of the rival Islamic groups but did he draw inspiration from them? He said he did. These radical groups say the West is decadent and has decadent values--one can imagine that would be a convenient scapegoat for a Muslim conflicted between his sexuality and religion.

I guess I believe that but for radical Islamic preaching war against the west, but for all the prior attacks that this attack would not have occurred. Whatever else drove his guy, he was a disaffected Muslim who drew inspiration from radical Islam.


To Danivon: it's not "blaming" Obama to point out that he cannot seem to figure out why terrorists who happen to be Islamic do what they do. In this particular instance, his lack of the modifiers "radical Islamic" would be laughable if they weren't so pathetic.

freeman3 is correct--although we may not have a "closeted homosexual" here.

Noor Zahi Salman, the wife of Orlando terrorist Omar Mateen, is cooperating with the FBI and reportedly has admitted that she knew of her husband’s plan to commit mass murder. She says she tried to talk him out of it, but didn’t report him to law enforcement.

It sounds as though Salman was more than a passive observer. Reportedly, she helped her husband to scout locations for a possible attack, including the Pulse night club, where she went by herself more than once. She also acknowledges being present when Mateen bought a holster and ammunition, so she knew about his purchase of firearms. If what is being reported is correct, she presumably will be charged as an accessory to her husband’s crimes.


http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2 ... -plans.php

Is he a homosexual or was he a meticulous murderer who scouted the location?

In any event, he was clearly Islamic and faithful:

A former co-worker of Omar Mateen says he was “a devout Muslim” who prayed several times during his shifts at the security company where they both worked.

Monday night, Fox News’ Megyn Kelly spoke with Daniel Gilroy who worked with Mateen for about a year at a security company. Gilroy tells Kelly he and Mateen were alone each work day during a shift changes and that Mateen made bigoted remarks on every single occasion they were together. After 8 months of this, Gilroy finally went to his supervisor to report what was happening.

Asked why he waited so long to report Mateen, Gilroy replied, “I wanted to make the job work. I wanted to keep the peace. I wanted to not be the trouble-maker at work.” But the company didn’t fire Mateen so after four months or requesting a transfer, Gilroy quit. Asked if he was surprised to learn Mateen had carried out the attack in Orlando, Gilroy replied, “No, not at all.”

Later in the interview Kelly asked Gilroy if he ever heard “any religious references” from Mateen or whether his remarks were simply biogted. Gilroy replied, “Our conversations were biogted and sexist but his religious activities was…he would bring a prayer mat with him and he would pray right in front of me.” Gilroy continued, “He would kneel down and chant and kiss objects and put on different…I think he put on a hat while he did that. And he did that for about ten minutes…a couple times during the shift. He was a devout Muslim.”

This seems to contradict a claims made by Mateen’s father after the shooting. Mir Seddique told NBC News, “This had nothing to do with religion.” Seddique speculated that his son became angry after seeing two gay men kissing in Miami a couple months earlier. http://hotair.com/archives/2016/06/14/o ... ut-muslim/
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Post 15 Jun 2016, 11:14 am

Doctor Fate wrote:http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2016/06/terrorists-wife-knew-of-abetted-plans.php

Is he a homosexual or was he a meticulous murderer who scouted the location?
For three years, while drinking there, and using gay dating? That's more than meticulous.

In any event, he was clearly Islamic and faithful:
Sure, apart from the alcohol, gay dating etc. Maybe his ostentatious praying etc was overcompensation.

Without knowing a lot more, we can conclude that he was radicalised, but not necessarily by whom - again, you can't be a member of Al Nusra, ISIS and the Mojahadeen. At least not for long once one finds out your allegiance to either of the other two. Clearly his own father has some views to express. Clearly a strict Muslim upbringing is a crappy place to be for a homosexual (and so can any strict religious background if the religious interpretation is that homosexuality is a mortal sin).

But it's not absolutely clear that this was solely about terrorism, or how much was about his sexuality and radical islam providing a convenient excuse for him to express his violent rage.

Freeman is probably right that without radical Islamic violence and rhetoric, he may not have done this - but he may still have done something.

Still, can we also say that without previous extremist Christian violence and rhetoric on abortion perhaps RL Dear would not have shot up the Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood clinic?
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Post 15 Jun 2016, 11:57 am

I think back to the 9-11 attackers who went to strip clubs, two of the Paris attackers owned a bar, one of them frequented gay bars. It's not the devout Muslims in the West who are sure of their identity that you tend to have to worry about I think; it's the ones having an existential crisis, torn between the temptations of the West and their religion, that you tend to have to worry about.
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Post 15 Jun 2016, 12:25 pm

and that "torn" feeling is where the hate springs from!Those who are torn, those who are poor, those who have no opportunities, those who feel lost. These are the people who we need to worry about the most in any walk of life, but Islamic Extremism is a convenient outlet or an easy way to legitimize such bizarre behavior.
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Post 01 Jul 2016, 11:35 am

This seems to put the lie to the idea that gun control will stop/slow/handicap terrorists, doesn't it?

Image

Germany has one of the most stringent gun control laws in the world. The current Weapons Act deals with guns suitable for private ownership. It contains a highly differentiated regime for licensing the acquisition, possession, and carrying of permitted weapons that restricts, according to criteria of need, the number and types of guns that can be owned or purchased, and has specific age restrictions for different types of weapons. The Act bans automatic firearms, regulates the production of and trade in weapons, and has reporting requirements that allow the tracing of every legally owned firearm, including those acquired through inheritance. Moreover, the Act contains stringent and enforceable requirements for the safe storage of guns. The Act is implemented by the administrative authorities of the states, except for the newly created National Weapons Register, which is a federal agency.

[…]

Germany categorizes firearms as either weapons of war or weapons suitable for civilian use. War weapons are listed in the War Weapons Act and cannot be circulated among the population.[48] Weapons that are potentially suitable for civilian use are governed by the Weapons Act and its prohibitions and restrictions.

The Weapons Act bans fully automated firearms. It also bans semiautomatic firearms that are not intended for hunting or sport shooting; pump-action shotguns with pistol grips or of a short overall length; firearms that are concealed in other objects; firearms that can be disassembled into unusually small parts; lasers, lights, projectors, and night-vision devices that can be mounted on the firearm to throw light on the target; and certain multiple-shot short arms in calibers under 6.3 millimeters, where the projectiles are not propelled solely by the priming charge.

[…]

Licensed gun owners are responsible for keeping their weapons under lock and key, and the law provides detailed specifications on the quality of the storage containers; these vary according to the potency of the weapons. Owners must inform the authorities of the safe-storage measures taken as well as allow the authorities to enter their dwellings for the purpose of monitoring compliance with safe-storage regulations.

It appears that such access must be granted without a search warrant, and, even though the German Constitution protects the privacy of the home, access cannot be refused if there is a threat of imminent danger. Random inspections, however, must be expected at any time and without any probable cause or suspicion. This increased right of the authorities to conduct inspections was enacted in 2009 in response to the Winnenden school shooting, and much has been said about the interpretation of this right.

So, yeah—Germany has probably what American liberals would want to institute here if they could, and Islamic radicals were able to obtain mass quantities of firearms. That’s not to say we should do nothing, but when it comes to fighting terrorism—maybe divert monetary and political resources to intelligence services and law enforcement, rather than disarming law-abiding Americans. (bold added)


It sure doesn't seem like the laws liberals are throwing themselves on the floor for will do much good.Original article:

The weapons arsenal was discovered during a top secret raid by a SWAT team in Nordrhein-Westfalen.

Local politician Ismail Tipi revealed details of the raid and warned of “the danger of fundamentalists”.

The weapons were found in a cold room of a greengrocer near a mosque.
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Post 01 Jul 2016, 12:19 pm

Meanwhile, the USSC strikes down laws requiring better doctors for abortions because "right to abortion" is so "sacred."

However, the Second Amendment?

Not so much.

he measures Brown signed will:

- Outlaw assault rifles with a feature known as a bullet button, which allows shooters to use a small tool to quickly change magazines

- Mandate background checks when a gun is loaned to someone other than a close relative of the owner

- Boost penalties for filing false reports of stolen guns, a measure targeting straw purchasers who buy weapons on behalf of people prohibited from doing so

- Create regulations for ammunition, including requirements that ammo sellers get a license and that purchases be screened

- Ban possession of magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds, requiring people who already own them to turn them in to authorities


This country is messed up. Punish the innocent. Ignore the motivation behind terrorism.

We need a dramatic change.
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Post 02 Jul 2016, 12:13 pm

Doctor Fate wrote:This seems to put the lie to the idea that gun control will stop/slow/handicap terrorists, doesn't it?
No one ever said that any law is 100% foolproof.

How many mass murders in Germany recently? How many terrorist attacks? What is their murder rate?
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Post 02 Jul 2016, 12:16 pm

Doctor Fate wrote:Meanwhile, the USSC strikes down laws requiring better doctors for abortions because "right to abortion" is so "sacred."
There was a lot more to it than that. A whole load of extra pointless regulation (such as detailed and convoluted rules on how 'no Exit" signs should look) that often contradicted other ordinances and would have driven clinics to close.

Not that it is really relevant.
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Post 02 Jul 2016, 12:34 pm

danivon wrote:
Doctor Fate wrote:This seems to put the lie to the idea that gun control will stop/slow/handicap terrorists, doesn't it?
No one ever said that any law is 100% foolproof.

How many mass murders in Germany recently? How many terrorist attacks? What is their murder rate?


Swing and a miss!

You can have all the "weapons control" laws you want--bad guys will get them.

California just passed draconian gun laws. Let's see how it impacts the murder rate.