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Post 08 Sep 2015, 3:05 pm

I'm sure they had any number of reasons, that undoubtedly being among them. The essential reason that anybody chooses to migrate is that they're in search of a better life, which can encompass all sorts of criteria. My point is that it's easier to assimilate migrant populations when there are fewer costs to the indigenous population and more benefits.
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Post 08 Sep 2015, 6:52 pm

Ricky:
Palestinians have been living in refugee camps (1.5 million of them in 58 camps) for decades.
http://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees

Perhaps familiarity with their plight makes the current batch of Arab refugees anxious to find a quick way out of the Turkish camps?


The Palestinian situation is unusual so I doubt that others are assuming they will be treated the same way. The Palestinians are purposefully kept as refugees as part of an Arab political agenda. However, just about every other refugee groups is resettled some way or another and isn't kept in limbo for 67 years in some cases (and counting).

Perhaps Germany should resettle 800,000 Palestinians as well?
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Post 09 Sep 2015, 6:14 am

bbauska
Perhaps they were moving to the US for the political environment?

The political environment in their home country, and the economic environment in their home country more likely.
For instance modernizing farming methods decreased the amount of labor required on Russian and Polish farms in the 1880s. Combine this with agents for the new world actively recruiting farmers for migration .... and boom. The freedoms offered were also attractive, no doubt. But mostly it was the opportunity to establish a new farm.

rayjay
The Palestinian situation is unusual so I doubt that others are assuming they will be treated the same way.The Palestinians are purposefully kept as refugees as part of an Arab political agenda

Really? Or is it because their home country remains occupied?
Since 1948, the sovereign State of Israel has guaranteed asylum and citizenship to Jewish refugees, while the self-declared State of Palestine remains unable to absorb the Palestinian refugees, due to lack of de facto sovereignty over its claimed territories.
The Palestinians want to return home but can't. The Syrians, I'm sure, would return home if their homeland was peaceful.
If the question is why don't the Palestinians become Jordanian, or Lebanese ....etc. Maybe they hold out hope that they can return home one day ?
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Post 09 Sep 2015, 7:23 am

rickyp wrote:bbauska
Perhaps they were moving to the US for the political environment?

The political environment in their home country, and the economic environment in their home country more likely.
For instance modernizing farming methods decreased the amount of labor required on Russian and Polish farms in the 1880s. Combine this with agents for the new world actively recruiting farmers for migration .... and boom. The freedoms offered were also attractive, no doubt. But mostly it was the opportunity to establish a new farm.

rayjay
The Palestinian situation is unusual so I doubt that others are assuming they will be treated the same way.The Palestinians are purposefully kept as refugees as part of an Arab political agenda

Really? Or is it because their home country remains occupied?
Since 1948, the sovereign State of Israel has guaranteed asylum and citizenship to Jewish refugees, while the self-declared State of Palestine remains unable to absorb the Palestinian refugees, due to lack of de facto sovereignty over its claimed territories.
The Palestinians want to return home but can't. The Syrians, I'm sure, would return home if their homeland was peaceful.
If the question is why don't the Palestinians become Jordanian, or Lebanese ....etc. Maybe they hold out hope that they can return home one day ?


Well, it is arguable that they've ever had a home country. But let's put that argument aside.

The Syrians want to some day return to their home country but instead of waiting in UN funded, hate-filled, and sometimes squalid refugee camps they are migrating to Europe and potentially being given citizenship. Hopefully they will have normal lives in Germany. Hopefully their children will have something even better. Why do the Palestinians deserve a different fate?

Since it's been >67 years, why condemn generations of Palestinians to further refugee status? Odds are that the Israeli - Palestinian dynamic will not change. Therefore, how is the world helping the Palestinians by giving them false hope they will return to Israel proper? Why not resettle them now in places where they can live productive lives?

P.S. The self declared state of Palestine is in the West Bank. I'm talking about people whose ancestors left Israel proper.
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Post 09 Sep 2015, 8:49 am

Ricky:
But mostly it was the opportunity to establish a new farm.



Too funny; most of the immigrants from Poland and Russia were settling in cities to work in factories. They weren't establishing new farms.

In this study, we measure the contribution of immigrants and their descendents to the growth and industrial transformation of the American workforce in the age of mass immigration from 1880 to 1920. The size and selectivity of the immigrant community, as well as their disproportionate residence in large cities, meant they were the mainstay of the American industrial workforce. Immigrants and their children comprised over half of manufacturing workers in 1920, and if the third generation (the grandchildren of immigrants) are included, then more than two-thirds of workers in the manufacturing sector were of recent immigrant stock.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2760060/
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Post 09 Sep 2015, 10:19 am

rayjay
The Syrians want to some day return to their home country but instead of waiting in UN funded, hate-filled, and sometimes squalid refugee camps they are migrating to Europe and potentially being given citizenship. Hopefully they will have normal lives in Germany. Hopefully their children will have something even better. Why do the Palestinians deserve a different fate?


I suppose what a people deserve depends on your point of view.
Palestinian refugees w-might be more directly compared to Kurds, who have also been denied a homeland by circumstance. Their fate has been to exist as part of Turkey, or Iraq, or Syria...
For them, I think they would see justice as an independent and sovereign Kurdistan not beset by aggressive Turkish, Syrian, Iraqis or ISIL military.
Many are still working towards that goal. Some have become refugees.

Some Palestinians left the region. (I have a friend I used to play soccer with who is an emigree.) But perhaps the lure of the homeland is strong? There are peoples who waited almost 2000 years to return to their homeland.

I think that Europe's aging population presents an opportunity for this wave of refugees to be absorbed and to revitalize the aging European population. I don't think that the same opportunity presented itself to the waves of Palestinian refugees in the 50s 60s and 70s. Nor did they decide to move en mass beyond the current camps, where as the current refugees had to deal with both poor local conditions and had knowledge of opportunities in Europe.

Ray
Too funny; most of the immigrants from Poland and Russia were settling in cities to work in factories. They weren't establishing new farms

They were farmers Ray. That they ended up in factories may be true, but not all.
My forefathers left Russia and ended up with many of their Russian neighbors on a farm in Alberta.
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Post 10 Sep 2015, 5:23 am

Ricky:
My forefathers left Russia and ended up with many of their Russian neighbors on a farm in Alberta.


Yes, but your forefathers don't constitute the majority of immigrants to the US.

But perhaps the lure of the homeland is strong? There are peoples who waited almost 2000 years to return to their homeland.


No, they didn't "wait". They went to whichever country would accept them and they lived and worked there. They didn't live in refugee camps for 2,000 years being supported by united nations handouts and governments that wanted to use them as a political weapon.
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Post 10 Sep 2015, 6:31 am

ray
They went to whichever country would accept them and they lived and worked there


An awful lot actually had as their genus point Alexandria, by the way. Not Israel. And substantial populations were found throughout the Roman Empire well before the Roman-Jewish wars.So, maybe not refugees so much as economic emigres?
I certainly hope that the fate of the current crop of refugees, who might one day be called the Arab diaspora, is better than the persecution faced by the Jewish diaspora in the Roman Empire after the Roman Jewish wars. And later, in medieval Europe due to the Catholic Church. I wonder if they knew what horrors awaited if they might have chosen to stay in camps close to home?
Today's Catholic Church certainly seems to be taking a different view of the acceptance of these predominantly Muslim refugees than those of the 12th century on..
And I wonder if the Palestinians had not been offered and taken refuge in the states bordering Israel, if they had instead decided to continue on into Turkey and Europe what would have befallen them? Communism, and the sealed border that came with Communism in Europe, was a substantial barrier to that route beyond Greece. Kind of ironic that the fall of Communism is one reason a refugee diaspora to Europe is possible.
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Post 10 Sep 2015, 7:44 am

Ricky:
An awful lot actually had as their genus point Alexandria, by the way. Not Israel. And substantial populations were found throughout the Roman Empire well before the Roman-Jewish wars.So, maybe not refugees so much as economic emigres?


Perhaps some were economic émigrés ... Chanukah is about persecution by Greek people before the Romans arrived.so they may have been pre-Roman political refugees. Also, presumably the Romans persecuted Jews in Alexandria who wouldn't bow down to the emperor. Here's something from Wikipedia which is all news to me:

Further waves of Jewish immigrants settled in Egypt during the Ptolemaic era, especially around Alexandria. Thus, their history in this period centers almost completely on Alexandria, though daughter communities rose up in places like the present Kafr ed-Dawar, and Jews served in the administration as custodians of the river.[6] As early as the 3rd century BCE, one can speak of a widespread diaspora of Jews in many Egyptian towns and cities. In Josephus's history, it is claimed that, after the first Ptolemy took Judea, he led some 120,000 Jewish captives to Egypt from the areas of Judea, Jerusalem, Samaria, and Mount Gerizim. With them, many other Jews, attracted by the fertile soil and Ptolemy's liberality, emigrated there of their own accord. An inscription recording a Jewish dedication of a synagogue to Ptolemy and Berenice was discovered in the 19th century near Alexandria.[7] Josephus also claims that, soon after, these 120,000 captives were freed of their bondage by Philadelphus.[8]

The history of the Alexandrian Jews dates from the foundation of the city by Alexander the Great, 332 BCE, at which they were present. They were numerous from the very outset, forming a notable portion of the city's population under Alexander's successors. The Ptolemies assigned them a separate section, two of the five districts of the city, to enable them to keep their laws pure of indigenous cultic influences. The Alexandrian Jews enjoyed a greater degree of political independence than elsewhere. While the Jewish population elsewhere throughout the later Roman Empire frequently formed private societies for religious purposes, or organized corporations of ethnic groups like the Egyptian and Phoenician merchants in the large commercial centers, those of Alexandria constituted an independent political community, side by side with that of the other ethnic groups.

For the Roman period there is evidence that at Oxyrynchus (modern Behneseh), on the east side of the Nile, there was a Jewish community of some importance. Many of the Jews there may have become Christians, though they retained their Biblical names (e.g., "David" and "Elisabeth," occurring in a litigation concerning an inheritance). There is even found a certain Jacob, son of Achilles (c. 300 CE), as beadle of an Egyptian temple.

The Jewish community of Alexandria was "extinguished" by Trajan's army during the Jewish revolt of 115–117 CE.[9]


P.S. They called it Judea and Samaria, not the "West Bank" at that time. :smile:
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Post 15 Sep 2015, 9:00 pm

Origin of Syrian conflict related to global warming?

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/03/03/sc ... ?referrer=
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Post 18 Sep 2015, 11:18 am

http://www.dw.com/en/german-refugee-aut ... a-18719518

Maybe the Germans are not more organised than we are....

If the average processing time is 5 months now, in the infancy of the crisis, they're going to have to massively scale up their operation to prevent it from ballooning out of control.
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Post 19 Sep 2015, 1:11 pm

So figures have been released recently that only 1/5 of the asylum seekers this year are actually from Syria.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/ ... 9b4f6a838f

I'd actually question that figure because I'm not sure of the methodology. Chances are that a lot of people are going to be claiming to by Syrian who aren't, so if this figure is based only on claimed nationality then the real figure is likely to be smaller (I haven't bothered to dig down into the small print to find out). Either way though, it illustrates the point I was making earlier in the thread. I hope you'll forgive my string of 'I told you so' posts, but it is remarkable how quickly the facts on the ground are proving me right.
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Post 19 Sep 2015, 2:10 pm

Wait a second. That would be significant if these were stas with regard to the mass of refugees coming from Turkey. But these stats are from the EU as a whole. There are always asylum seekers coming into the EU. Without a detailed analysis of the numbers, how they increased from last year, what percentage of the asylum seekers from Turkey who are Syrian...these stats don't mean anything. They need to be interpreted and saying that only 20% asylum seekers are Syrian out of the entire EU does not mean much until they are interpreted.
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Post 19 Sep 2015, 2:37 pm

Sure, but the vast bulk of asylum seekers make their claim in a handful of EU nations. In 2014 Germany had a total of 202814 applications. The next highest was Sweden, with 81325. You can see the figures here:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/databl ... um-seekers

Germany, Sweden, France, Hungary and Italy account for about 90% of claims. The figures quoted in that link I posted only account for new claims from the 2nd quarter of 2015. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the bulk of these claims will have been made in Germany and Hungary, given what's been happening in the last few months.
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Post 22 Sep 2015, 1:43 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34331126

So the migrant quota scheme has been forced through by majority vote. Needless to say it's a drop in the ocean. 120000 migrants will be relocated around Europe on a proportional basis, some of which will end up in countries like Poland and Romania where nobody wants them and where they don't want to be. This at a time when migrants are currently arriving in Europe at a rate of 6000 a day, meaning that by this time next month more people will have arrived in Greece and Italy than the total number of people who have been relocated.

Watch this scheme unravel over the coming months. The Polish elections are coming up, and the polls are currently predicting a win for an anti-immigration right wing party who will no doubt look to oppose any expansion of the scheme. Hungary, Slovakia, Romania and the Czech Republic are implacably opposed already, and there are regional elections in France before too muich longer which could well see sweeping gains for the Front Nationale.