To be clear I am still not buying that the survey shows much of anything (including intolerance) given its provocative nature. I would not expect Christian bakeries to react too well if someone came in and requested a cake saying things against the Christian religion. Maybe they should have asked would the bakery make a cake for a wedding in a church? And I think that businesses that make a product or provide a service cannot discriminate on who they provide that product or service to. ( so, yes , the Christian bakery should provide a wedding cake to the gay couple). But they need not participate in political speech that offends them.

bbauska

Still no answer on whether the bakeries are being intolerant on the Shoebat study,

I admit i didn't listen to the interviews. Didn't know I could.
I listened to some now.
I have to ask how this is called a "Study". Its more like some AM radio jock prank calling people.

I would say the bakeries that Shoebat called are being intolerant. Of an idiot.

rickyp wrote:bbauska

Still no answer on whether the bakeries are being intolerant on the Shoebat study,

I admit i didn't listen to the interviews. Didn't know I could.
I listened to some now.
I have to ask how this is called a "Study". Its more like some AM radio jock prank calling people.

I would say the bakeries that Shoebat called are being intolerant. Of an idiot.

A proper study might have had a "control group" of bakeries. Maybe many non-gay bakers would also refuse the anti-gay message. Maybe some "Christian" bakers would as well.

A better test would be to see if they would make a cake for a religious wedding - after all, it is the "ceremony" that these martyr-bakers oppose, right?

Freeman called it a study, and I went with his word.

As for the comparison, this forum is about intolerance.

Are the bakers in Shoebat being tolerant of another's opinion? No, they are not. They want their view recognized, but not have to recognize an alternate view. This is intolerance as written in Websters. Since the LGBT community is used to dealing with intolerance, it is so surprising that they would treat others differently. I believe it was RickyP that was quoting the Golden Rule in another forum with DF.

Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it does not fit as comfortably?

The point you're making is that people can disagree even strongly but be respectful of the other person. And you're saying the LGBT community is not being tolerant here. People should be able to exchange views in a civil manner without bring attacked-- I agree with you. The point here is that Shoebat is being rude in calling these pro gay marriage bakeries. Rudeness tends to get responded to in kind. You keep arguing that this baker survey shows that the LGBT community is not tolerant of other views, but all it shows is that people don't react well when people are rude to them or if they think they are being made fun of.

freeman3 wrote:The point you're making is that people can disagree even strongly but be respectful of the other person. And you're saying the LGBT community is not being tolerant here. People should be able to exchange views in a civil manner without bring attacked-- I agree with you. The point here is that Shoebat is being rude in calling these pro gay marriage bakeries. Rudeness tends to get responded to in kind. You keep arguing that this baker survey shows that the LGBT community is not tolerant of other views, but all it shows is that people don't react well when people are rude to them or if they think they are being made fun of.

Would it be rude to go to a "Christian" bakery and ask for a marriage equality cake? What did Shoebat do that was rude? All that was asked is if the can make a cake that would have a viewpoint opposite of theirs.

The first "lady" started swearing at him just because he asked for a different statement. He was offered a cookie with a "big d*@k on it". Is that acceptable rudeness?

The second lady would not do that service because half of her shop is gay.

The third lady would not make a cake because they don't believe in it.

The fourth lady was no help

The fifth lady would not help, but offered that they would let him wrote what he wants on his own cake.

The man at the sixth shop could not help because he would not feel comfortable with the caller's view.

Seventh shop: Said that was similar to a nude cake, and their policy does not allow that. They could not be his bakery. (hang up) (Good Answer, BTW)

Eighth shop: (Hang up)

Ninth shop: Too busy, Get a fu*#ing life (Hang up)

Tenth shop: They don't do sexual things on a cake. (Good answer) I agree that the shop had the right answer here. Don't do any kind of cake that is outside the norm.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Shall I list more? The bakers were intolerant and not accepting of any position opposite of theirs.

What would be the LGBT opinion of a bakery that turned down a cake order that said "Gay Marriage is Right"? Would that be ok to hang up on them and say "Sure, I can write that on a cross for you"? I believe the LGBT community would be incensed at such "intolerance". That would be regardless of whether they felt "made fun of".

I listened to the first recording. And the guy tells the shop, after the shop owner calmly tells them that it won't because they're a gay shop, and he says I thought you were for equality...

Let me make several points:

(1) These are phone calls. That's different than a visit to the store where the owner can assess the intention behind the request;
(2) The caller is not making a legitimate good faith request. No one would ask for such a cake. Any gay bakery would clearly understand that this caller is trying to embarrass them and resent it ;
(3) As Owen points out they did not call other bakeries, including Christian and bakeries not identified as being Christian , so that we could see how non- gay bakeries would react to such a request ;
(4) The language of the request is particularly offensive, because it says gay marriage is wrong, not just opposition to gay marriage. In another words gays are being attacked by the caller. It is understandable that when a gay shop is being attacked by a Christian caller...they will respond in kind.

So, no, this telephonic survey has no resemblance at all to the situation where a gay couple made a legitimate good faith request for a wedding cake from a Christian bakery. Get back to me when the guys call 13 Christiam bakers and asks for a cake saying Christianity is wrong and see how the Christian bakers respond.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/30/was-i-wrong-to-support-gay-marriage/

Interesting article.

Bbauska here's the most interesting line from the article you linked...

How many backers of theoretical gay marriage will regret the reality of gay marriage?

The answer can be found in the experience of nations where same sex marriages have been allowed for over a decade. The issue is no longer an issue and everyone is getting along just fine.
The answer can also be found in he history of acceptance in the US. When SCOTUS ruled on interracial marriage in 64 most Americans were dead set against the notion.
Today ... its a given. Anyone opposing the notion today would be derided as a bigot.

The prophecies of the nay Sayers who believe there is genuine potential for a massive campaign of intolerance against Christians now ... will be proved wrong in a short time. And same sex marriage will be accepted as a norm.
With general acceptance, and enough options, I doubt gays and Lesbians will often decide to confront bigotry too often. But I'm sure there will be some examples ...and perhaps businesses will decide to conform to the new norm as they did to interracial marriage.(I haven't heard of anyone unwilling to make a cake for a mixed race marriage. Have you?)

bbauska wrote:http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/30/was-i-wrong-to-support-gay-marriage/

Interesting article.

I read this article. I liked it and can identify with it because I feel rather the same way.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/08/08/bernie-sanders-leaves-seattle-stage-after-event-disrupted-by-black-lives-matter-protesters/

Is this tolerance of others view? Rude, disrespectful, and intolerant.

bbauska wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/08/08/bernie-sanders-leaves-seattle-stage-after-event-disrupted-by-black-lives-matter-protesters/

Is this tolerance of others view? Rude, disrespectful, and intolerant.

No, it is not. It is also a completely different topic.

I was talking about intolerance of the left. How does this not apply? Is it because the protesters are not of the left?

I contest that idea. I say they are lefties, and they were intolerant.

bbauska wrote:I was talking about intolerance of the left. How does this not apply? Is it because the protesters are not of the left?

I contest that idea. I say they are lefties, and they were intolerant.

Are they a true synecdoche, or just a couple of people who Black Lives Matter disavow?

If we are playing that game, we can trade anecdotes of singular "lefties" and "righties" being jerks. But it would prove little.

At least it wasn't another homophobic baker....

But here is an interview with one of the protesters who says she comes from a Tea Party family and acted on her very strong religious convictions:

http://www.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/2 ... ie-sanders

So is it her "lefty" position, or her religion, that makes her intolerant?