Sassenach wrote:If he doesn't take out Rubio he has no chance anyway.

He also explicitly utilizes his religious beliefs as a rationale for his politics. Oddly, I'm not a fan of that. I think it is fine to want to take care of the poor. I dislike the Bible being used as a governmental motivation for caring for the poor. Can you imagine Jesus saying to Caesar, "Take care of these poor people or else?"

So if a politician uses Biblical justifications for opposing gay marriage or abortion would you make the same point ?

Fact is that politicians use their faith as an explicit justification for their policies all the time. Tony Blair used to like saying his strong faith motivated him to invade Iraq. Bush cited Jesus as his favourite philosopher and never missed a chance to trumpet how his muscular Christianity was the motivation for all of his policies.

Bush didn't use the Bible to justify Iraq, did he?

When he said Jesus was his favorite philosopher, my response was two-fold: 1) the question was dumb; 2) if you're a Christian, Jesus is not (strictly speaking) a philosopher.

Regarding social issues, no, I think Rubio is on the right track and he didn't use the Bible to justify his abortion position.

danivon wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:He also explicitly utilizes his religious beliefs as a rationale for his politics. Oddly, I'm not a fan of that. I think it is fine to want to take care of the poor. I dislike the Bible being used as a governmental motivation for caring for the poor. Can you imagine Jesus saying to Caesar, "Take care of these poor people or else?"

Are there many US politicians who don't?

Rubio invoked "God's Law" when speaking out against the Supreme Court decision on gay marriage. And he went heavy on religion in the lead up to Iowa. But I don't see you complaining about that.

Campaigning for religious votes and explaining decisions on governance are two different things. There are Christians who want to impose the Law on the US. They are "reconstructionists" or "dominionists" and they are a decided minority.

I did not think Christie had won much for himself, but Rubio was hurt by the exchange. And it will set some to wonder how sincere he is if he can't respond to such a challenge.

Right on both counts.

Regarding social issues, no, I think Rubio is on the right track and he didn't use the Bible to justify his abortion position.

I think he was quite clearly implying that his opposition to abortion is inspired by his faith.

What you seem to be saying is that you don't like people trying to use the Bible to justify their policies when you don't agree with the theological interpretation, but where you do agree theologically then you appear to be fine with it politically as well. That's fine, you're quite free to agree or disagree with political statements for whatever reason you like, but it doesn't really amount to a logically consistent position.

Personally I avoid theological arguments either way. I neither use them to buttress my own views nor deploy them to highlight alleged hypocrisy in others (as Ricky does from time to time). As an atheist I could hardly do otherwise of course.

Sassenach wrote:

Regarding social issues, no, I think Rubio is on the right track and he didn't use the Bible to justify his abortion position.

I think he was quite clearly implying that his opposition to abortion is inspired by his faith.

What you seem to be saying is that you don't like people trying to use the Bible to justify their policies when you don't agree with the theological interpretation, but where you do agree theologically then you appear to be fine with it politically as well. That's fine, you're quite free to agree or disagree with political statements for whatever reason you like, but it doesn't really amount to a logically consistent position.

I'm not saying what you imply I "seem to be saying."

What I said is not a matter of "interpretation." Jesus never told the government what to do re poor people.

I think, say, Pope Francis might disagree. I have no opinion on the matter one way or the other, but I think it's hard to say that it's settled.

Fate

Jesus never told the government what to do re poor people.

Wasn't he talking to everybody?

Luke 14:13 ESV /

But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

Deuteronomy 15:11 ESV /

For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

Mark 10:21 ESV /

And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Luke 4:18 ESV /

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,

Luke 6:20-26 ESV /

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh. “Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets. “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. ...

Proverbs 19:17 ESV /

Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.

Luke 6:20-21 ESV / l

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.

Matthew 25:40 ESV /

And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Matthew 11:5 ESV

The blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them.

Mark 10:25 ESV /

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

I don't remember him saying anything like... " Ceasar, don't worry about the Poor for that is the role of Charity".

The debate probably ended Rubio's chances for second or third.
Unless there is a surprise in the voting Tuesday, there will likely still be 6 candidates in South Carolina and Nevada. And then perhaps March 1st and 5th.
Trump will continue to hold a third. Cruz a fifth. The other 45% will be divided up by 4 candidates.
This still bodes well for Mr. Trump.

Freeman3

Sass mentioned an excessive number of Republican debates but I think there is something admirable and democratic about forcing the candidates to go through ruthless scrutiny

Yes. But how substantive are the republican debates? Mostly just bumper stickers.... And even with this, the fact checkers have a field day catching the BS>
At one time it is was a requirement for candidates for President to actually produce position papers on policies and be able to defend them in depth.
Rubio and Trumps answer on health care is "we'll work something out".

Is that adding to the scrutiny?

Doctor Fate wrote:

danivon wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:He also explicitly utilizes his religious beliefs as a rationale for his politics. Oddly, I'm not a fan of that. I think it is fine to want to take care of the poor. I dislike the Bible being used as a governmental motivation for caring for the poor. Can you imagine Jesus saying to Caesar, "Take care of these poor people or else?"

Are there many US politicians who don't?

Rubio invoked "God's Law" when speaking out against the Supreme Court decision on gay marriage. And he went heavy on religion in the lead up to Iowa. But I don't see you complaining about that.

Campaigning for religious votes and explaining decisions on governance are two different things. There are Christians who want to impose the Law on the US. They are "reconstructionists" or "dominionists" and they are a decided minority.

So is Kasich a Dominionist? He does not seem to be.

How do Cruz and Rubio campaign for religious votes? By campaigning on religious issues such as abortion (and what the law should be), gay marriage (and what the law should be), etc etc.

Basically, what I see is you criticising Kasich for doing something politicians do without your censure normally. It is just that clearly when he does it, you disagree with him, and when others you agree with do it that is different.

Meh.

I did not think Christie had won much for himself, but Rubio was hurt by the exchange. And it will set some to wonder how sincere he is if he can't respond to such a challenge.

Right on both counts.

So who does that leave? Cruz?

Sassenach wrote:I think, say, Pope Francis might disagree. I have no opinion on the matter one way or the other, but I think it's hard to say that it's settled.

Then again, Popes can make doctrine from whole cloth. Perpetual virginity of Mary? Assumption of Mary? Celibacy for priests? Those and many more not only have no Biblical basis, but are contradicted by the Bible.

In other words, Rome takes the Bible as a book of nice advice. That was the heart of the Reformation.

rickyp wrote:Fate

Jesus never told the government what to do re poor people.

Wasn't he talking to everybody?

Luke 14:13 ESV /

But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

Deuteronomy 15:11 ESV /

For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

Mark 10:21 ESV /

And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Luke 4:18 ESV /

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,

Luke 6:20-26 ESV /

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh. “Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets. “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. ...

Proverbs 19:17 ESV /

Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.

Luke 6:20-21 ESV / l

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.

Matthew 25:40 ESV /

And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Matthew 11:5 ESV

The blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them.

Mark 10:25 ESV /

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

I don't remember him saying anything like... " Ceasar, don't worry about the Poor for that is the role of Charity".

I'll save Dr. Fate the bother of responding to Ricky's trolling ... Jesus didn't say anything about the government collecting taxes to support poor people. Why Ricky would post this when we've had that conversation 1,000 times is beyond me.

rickyp wrote:Fate

Jesus never told the government what to do re poor people.

Wasn't he talking to everybody?

To answer you bluntly: he was not instructing the government.

Luke 14:13 ESV /

But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

Please tell me--what was Jesus' audience? What was the point He was trying to make?

Deuteronomy 15:11 ESV /

For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

Please note: we are not OT Israel: a Jewish theocracy.

Mark 10:21 ESV /

And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

If this was intended to all people, then the requirement for heaven is simply to get rid of everything. However, that is not how salvation is described in the NT. On the other hand, if one look at the context, this is what we see:

(Mk. 10:17-23) And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'"
20 And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth."
21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!"

So, is the command to give away everything universal, or was it in a conversation with ONE man?

You can keep arguing, but you better study the Bible before you start. You don't understand basic principles for interpreting ANY literature: context is king.

Luke 4:18 ESV /

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,

Do you have any idea what this means? If so, where do your ideas come from?

Luke 6:20-26 ESV /

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh. “Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets. “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. ...

Again, how does this apply to government? Is it a call for people to hate government? Is it a call for the government to make everyone poor so they all go to heaven? What is your point? Do you have one?

Proverbs 19:17 ESV /

Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.

Generosity of individuals is not related to government.

Luke 6:20-21 ESV / l

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.

This is the second time you posted it. I'll bold the first one so you can see that. It's good to know that you're working so hard.

Matthew 25:40 ESV /

And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

The King? So, wait, is your point that when someone helps the needy, they're helping the government? If not, what is your point? Do you have one?

Matthew 11:5 ESV

The blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them.

Um, how does this apply?

Mark 10:25 ESV /

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

Yes, compelling arguments for confiscatory taxes . . . wait, what?

I don't remember him saying anything like... " Ceasar, don't worry about the Poor for that is the role of Charity".

No, He instructed individuals (who are believers, followers of His) to care for those in need. However, He NEVER (look it up) gave any commands for Caesar.

1. I'm open to any argument someone cares to make AFTER they do some exegetical work on the text(s).

2. (Connected) You cannot select any passage you like and apply it however you would like. The original intent must be considered. For example, does this apply to government?

(Jn. 10:1-6) "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.
2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Who are the sheep?
Who is the "thief and robber?"
Who is "a stranger?"
Why would Jesus speak in a "figure of speech?"

Here's the problem: you don't believe in Jesus or the Bible, but you seek to use something you don't believe in or understand as an authority to enforce your views on me. The problem is you don't know what you're talking about. That is evident.

Ray Jay wrote:

rickyp wrote:Fate

Jesus never told the government what to do re poor people.

Wasn't he talking to everybody?

Luke 14:13 ESV /

But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

Deuteronomy 15:11 ESV /

For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

Mark 10:21 ESV /

And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Luke 4:18 ESV /

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,

Luke 6:20-26 ESV /

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh. “Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets. “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. ...

Proverbs 19:17 ESV /

Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.

Luke 6:20-21 ESV / l

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.

Matthew 25:40 ESV /

And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Matthew 11:5 ESV

The blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them.

Mark 10:25 ESV /

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

I don't remember him saying anything like... " Ceasar, don't worry about the Poor for that is the role of Charity".

I'll save Dr. Fate the bother of responding to Ricky's trolling ... Jesus didn't say anything about the government collecting taxes to support poor people. Why Ricky would post this when we've had that conversation 1,000 times is beyond me.

Sorry, I saw your post just as I was posting.

Thank you.

Rayjay

Why Ricky would post this when we've had that conversation 1,000 times is beyond me.

Simply an illustration of how selective interpretation of the Scriptures delivers whatever the interpreter wants... And Fate is most selective .
Where many do think Jesus was preaching golden rule to everyone, and the need to take care of one's brother doesn't exclude government ... the fact he was never "quoted" specifically telling this to the Roman government is used as an excuse to not apply his teachings to government. A set of Venn diagrams could explain why this is illogical.

There is an entire Christian sect (mostly English) which sees things another way on this by the way...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

You'll agree that there is room for many interpretations Ray? (I know Fate doesn't).
Its one reason secularism works better than theologically governed society. Ideas have to stand with the support of logic, reason and evidence. When religion gets into it, its the authority of whomever is interpreting the scriptures that rarely has anything to do with logic, reason or evidence.
When politicians start justifying their positions on issues with their interpretations of the Scriptures it means were sliding down a slippery slope.

rickyp wrote:Rayjay

Why Ricky would post this when we've had that conversation 1,000 times is beyond me.

Simply an illustration of how selective interpretation of the Scriptures delivers whatever the interpreter wants... And Fate is most selective .

Hmm, tell me . . . are you also expert in the Qur'an? Bhagavad Gita? Book of Mormon?

What you did was post a list of Scriptures. That is not even an "interpretation." It's just a list. You made ZERO effort to show those verses mean . . . well, anything, let alone that government is responsible for eliminating poverty per Jesus.

Where many do think Jesus was preaching golden rule to everyone, and the need to take care of one's brother doesn't exclude government ... the fact he was never "quoted" specifically telling this to the Roman government is used as an excuse to not apply his teachings to government. A set of Venn diagrams could explain why this is illogical.

What's really fun is you didn't even list the "Golden Rule" in your set of verses. Hmm. Weird.

Since you mention it now, let's look at the context, shall we?

(Matt. 7:7-12) Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
12 "So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Oh, NOW I see why you think this pertains to government. It's this part, isn't it? "If you then, who are evil."

The Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) was a . . . sermon. Sermons are only going to have an impact on those who are believers. It is a call to action for those who claim to be believers, thus challenges such as "Be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

There is an entire Christian sect (mostly English) which sees things another way on this by the way...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

And, there are so-called Christians who believe the key to life is to establish the Ten Commandments as the law of the land in the US--so what? There are plenty of crazy cults. What is telling about your "Christian socialists" is they do what you did--list a bunch of proot-texts without any attempt at exegesis. That's prima facie evidence of a cult.

You'll agree that there is room for many interpretations Ray? (I know Fate doesn't).

I never said that.

Here's a question for you though and I'd like to you to ponder before you answer--so take at least three seconds.

Question: Who knows what a given text means with 100% certainty and accuracy?

Don't peak!

The answer, obviously, is the author.

The goal of exegesis is to derive authorial intent. Please show how anything you've posted relates to that?

Its one reason secularism works better than theologically governed society. Ideas have to stand with the support of logic, reason and evidence.

Really? Is this correct? So, I can walk up to any voter, ask them why they support, for example, Bernie Sanders, and expect to get "logic, reason, and evidence" for their position?

Wanna bet?

Isn't it arguable that people when elections based on personality, or even the promise of "free stuff?"

When religion gets into it, its the authority of whomever is interpreting the scriptures that rarely has anything to do with logic, reason or evidence.

Because secular states never do irrational things, right?

When politicians start justifying their positions on issues with their interpretations of the Scriptures it means were sliding down a slippery slope.

You should listen to your idol more often. He abuses Scripture as much as anyone who has ever held the office.

Fate

You should listen to your idol more often. He abuses Scripture as much as anyone who has ever held the office

Bruce Springsteen does not abuse Scripture.