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- Green Arrow
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01 Mar 2011, 10:44 am
Are the Democratic Senators from Wisconsin acting as a legislator should by avoiding voting one way or the other?
What would the response have been if the Republican Senators left during the health care vote in the US Senate?
I believe the legislators should do just that. Legislate. Vote against the bill in Wisconsin. Don't take your toys and leave because you are not getting your way. That is immature.
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- Neal Anderth
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01 Mar 2011, 11:44 am
They seem to be getting their way, the polls are in their favor and it's not boding well for Walker's popularity. The police ignored his order on Friday. In the end I suspect he'll win the battle and lose the war.
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- danivon
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01 Mar 2011, 11:52 am
GA - surely sometimes it's just as good a thing that legislators do not legislate (are you telling me that too few laws are passed?).
I think it's s political act, and will have a political response. Had Republican Senators not turned up, then the Democrats would have had a go at them for it. I expect nothing less from the Republicans in Wisconsin. Still, someone wrote a set of rules that set the quorum so high that a minority of state senators can halt proceedings by not being there.
It's as reasonable as a filibuster that means that 40% of a Senate can stop legislation from being voted on. Or even a filibuster on legislation that means a single member of a house can keep talking in order to stop a vote.
Have a go at those who do it all you like, but it's the dumb rules that let them that's the problem, surely? Unless the rules are designed for the very purpose of limiting the possibility of an majoritarian dictatorship...
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- Green Arrow
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01 Mar 2011, 12:10 pm
I agree that there are enough laws. The crux of my question is one asking if it is mature to run away. The quorum rule is what is in place in Wisconsin. If there were filibuster rules, I would expect them to be followed as well.
To not show up for work because you disagree is what I asked about.
Is the Majoritarian dictatorship what happened in the US after 2008?
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- rickyp
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01 Mar 2011, 1:58 pm
GA
The crux of my question is one asking if it is mature to run away
Sometimes. And sometimes its a pretty smart tactic. The russians beat Napolean by running away.
Seems also to have been effective in this case. Right now the polls show a virtual tie for a recall of Walker. Which, can't happen until he's been in office a year.
Does it seem mature to ram legislation through, with the least debate and procedure possible, even though it wasn't part of the election campaign?
If the legislation is as unpopular as the polls show, and Walker was recalled, wouldn't the legislation be reversed by his successor? Which would seem to indicate that a more even handed approach to legislation might make sense. Be more mature.
Democracy doesn't only occur at the ballot box.
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- GMTom
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01 Mar 2011, 2:29 pm
and in those same polls that the NY Times did showing slight favor to the union side regarding cuts, Those of same people only 1/3 have a favorable view of unions. My money would be on the side of the Republicans in this situation, Unions, especially the government sector unions get so much more than the rest of us get. When the vast majority of Americans have to cut back and have to pay more and make do with less, these unions (paid for by the rest of us) get to ignore all reality and that "support" is not going to hold, not hardly!
and the above post, the polls show only slightly in favor of the unions, the way Ricky puts it seems to be saying it is some sort of large difference? I think the more mature approach is by GA in expecting government officials to actually do their job. Gee, seems like Ricky thinks it is not mature to work and more mature to not do your fair share in taking cuts everyone else must take? Uhhh, Ricky, that is a quite UNmature position you have. Sort of like a child having a temper tantrum when he doesn't get his way.
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- danivon
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01 Mar 2011, 3:26 pm
Green Arrow wrote:I agree that there are enough laws. The crux of my question is one asking if it is mature to run away. The quorum rule is what is in place in Wisconsin. If there were filibuster rules, I would expect them to be followed as well.
Is it mature? Not hugely in my view, but in the context of American politics it's fairly run of the mill, really.
To not show up for work because you disagree is what I asked about.
Sometimes it is not unacceptable to fail to show up for work, if you feel that you are being asked to do something immoral or illegal.
Of course, there is more to being a legislator than going into the chamber and voting.
Is the Majoritarian dictatorship what happened in the US after 2008?
Well, not really - the threat of the filibuster meant that the Democrats had to compromise pretty hard, and the reality of last year's elections limited the scope of what could be done.
Your majorities, even with both Federal chambers and the President, don't seem to have the power that they do here in the UK, and even our 'majoritarian dictatorship' is pretty weak at times (our balancing is not odd parliamentary rules as much as our unelected House of Lords...)
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- rickyp
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01 Mar 2011, 3:46 pm
http://people-press.org/report/709/http://people-press.org/report/709/Da Polls... (There's another on the recall question I can't find right now) But if leaving the state was a delay tactic to marshall public support its worked reasonably well....
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- Neal Anderth
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01 Mar 2011, 8:26 pm
I'm finding this controversy has a certain je ne sais quo about it.
A general strike is being contemplated.
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- Green Arrow
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01 Mar 2011, 8:35 pm
So Labor expects the Governor to negotiate, but supports the Missing Senate Dems to run away and NOT negotiate...
Double standard, Hmmm?
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- PCHiway
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02 Mar 2011, 2:05 pm
Things like this are solid gold for local political parties. If the Dems had stayed to vote, they wouldn't have gotten nearly as much press. As it stands they've made the budget battle in WI a national cause celebe. International even.
I expect (if it hasn't happened already) the WI Democratic and Republican parties to put out nationwide calls for funds to more properly fight the other side. And, thanks to the furor of the last few weeks, both parties will pull in millions.
Who wants to bet how much of that swag will go to balance the WI budget?
The blessing of Mercutio on both parties.
That said, I'm more disappointed with the Dems than the Republicans. Walker may have been maladroit but, in the only slightly changed words of President Obama, "he won". Walker was trying to do what Obama should have, push through every livin-lovin thing he could that he thought would help his state. He wasn't elected to sit on his thumbs. if he overreached himself and his mandate...it would have been child's play for the Dems to unseat him in a year with a recall and then repeal everything he had wrought. Concern for the teachers in the interim? No problem, just appeal to the nation, get the money from concerned citizens and distribute it to the educators. Heck...I'd even consider voting for the Democrats if they showed that level of integrity.
No, the local Dems seem terrified that Walker's plan will actually work and thus must re-frame the argument. Well played actually. Horrible for Wisconsin's overall political health and economic future...but well played for their own interests indeed.
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- Neal Anderth
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02 Mar 2011, 4:53 pm
Regardless of how any of us view the right or wrong of this, the situation for Walker is pretty significant. He's the head of the executive branch of government in Wisconsin, and 99% of the executive (i.e. all the employees) has taken up protest against him. As it stands he's a guy in an office with a telephone. He went to war with his own minions.
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- Doctor Fate
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02 Mar 2011, 4:59 pm
rickyp wrote:http://people-press.org/report/709/Da Polls... (There's another on the recall question I can't find right now) But if leaving the state was a delay tactic to marshall public support its worked reasonably well....
First, they surveyed adults. Value: near zero. "Adults" don't vote. "Voters" vote.
Second, the governor was just elected on this platform. You may not like it, teachers may not like it, but he won. So did the GOP in the legislature. FYI: that was way, way back--in November of 2010. The electorate didn't do a 180 in the two months he's been in office.
Third, some of it has to do with how you ask the question. Apparently, I can't link to this poll because the guy's name is an epithet. He used to do polling for Clinton and now has become a bit of a conservative. Last name is Morris. This is from his website.
VOTERS SUPPORT CHANGING THE BENEFITS TO STATE WORKERS, PAY, AND AUTOMATIC DEDUCTION OF UNION DUES
• By 74-18, they back making state employees pay more for their health insurance.
• By 79-16, they support asking state workers contribute more toward their pensions.
• By 54-34, Wisconsin voters support ending the automatic deduction of union dues from state paychecks and support making unions collect dues from each member.
• By 66-30, they back limiting state workers’ pay increases to the rate of inflation unless voters approve a higher raise by a public referendum.
VOTERS OPPOSE CHANGING COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENTS
On the issue of limiting collective bargaining to wage and benefit issues, however, they break with the Governor, opposing the proposal by 41-54.
So, it's only in the last little bit that Walker may go too far. I don't believe that is a winner for the Democrats, since they lost the election, are not doing their jobs, and are largely responsible for the shambles the government is in.
Last edited by
Doctor Fate on 02 Mar 2011, 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Neal Anderth
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02 Mar 2011, 5:31 pm
Walker didn't run on a platform of stripping state employees of their collective bargaining rights, he won on a platform that included cutting pay and benefits. Had he stuck to that it would never have come to this.
As part of his campaign platform, Walker said he would create 250,000 jobs in his first term through a program that would include tax reforms such as rolling back the 2009 state tax increases on small businesses, capital gains, and income for top earners, and cutting state employee wages and benefits to help pay for the tax cuts. Critics claimed his proposals would only help the wealthy and that cutting the salaries of public employees would adversely affect state services. Supporters said that tax cuts for businesses would reduce the cost of labor, which would ultimately promote consumer demand and more job growth. Walker indicated he would refuse an $810 million dollar award from the federal Department of Transportation to build a high speed railroad line from Madison to Milwaukee because he believed it would cost the state $7.5 million per year to operate and would not be profitable. The award was later rescinded and split among other states.
Social issues played a part in the campaign. Walker has stated that he is "100% pro-life", meaning that he opposes abortion in all circumstances including in cases of rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother. He supports abstinence-only sex education in the public schools, and opposes state supported clinical services that provide birth control and testing and treatment of sexually transmitted diseases to teens under the age of 18 without parental consent. He supports the right of pharmacists to refuse to fill prescriptions for contraceptives on religious or moral grounds. He supports adult stem cell research, but opposes human embryonic stem cell research. As the election drew near, Barrett attempted to portray Walker as an extremist on social issues.
