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Statesman
 
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Post 28 Aug 2021, 9:12 am

The root cause of the COVID-19 pandemic is zoonosis — the transmission of pathogens from animals to humans. Zoonotic disease is frequently compounded by a broad set of environmental conditions. Zoonoses are responsible for about 60 percent of infectious diseases in humans, estimated to total about one billion cases of illness and millions of deaths every year. These figures don’t even take into account the impact of COVID-19.


You sound like a typical conspiracy theorist Freeman.
No explanation will suit you that doesn't meet your preconceived notion that the Chinese are somehow guilty of being the origins of Covid19.

You want an example of your inconsistent reasoning?

Actually, there is evidence that Spanish Flu was around as early as 1916 but didnt TV really hit until 1918 (and did it come from a jump from animals to humans?) Again an example of a virus jumping from animals to humans and then quickly becoming hughly transmissible would be nice.

And yet earlier you dismissed the Italian research that showed that the Covid 19 virus may have been present in Italy in July 6 months before the Chinese outbreak was recognized.

You need to settle down and just realize that there is much unknown, that science may get some answers eventually, but that politicizing Covid has damaged the process. And that dwelling on the tenuous to try and prove some non-existent conspiracy is unhealthy.
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Post 29 Aug 2021, 5:34 am

Ricky:
When the investigation stopped being purely scientific and became politicized by Pompeo and Trump the chance that a definitive answer would be found evaporated in ill will and suspicion.


It's weird to play the Trump card here. :smile: The Biden administration has just done a 90 day review which has not been fully released. The headlines are that some agencies think it developed naturally with low level confidence of that belief. Another agency believes that it came from the lab with a moderate level of confidence.

By calling it a conspiracy theory you are equating it with us not really landing on the moon or H. Clinton involved in pedophilia. But this is not a right wing conspiracy theory. It is believed by many in the Biden administration, some of whom have more detailed knowledge than any of us and spend their time researching this.

Ricky:
We probably will never know definitely.
We agree. Why is that? It's because China has not been forthcoming with information and has done what it can to hinder the investigation.
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Statesman
 
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Post 29 Aug 2021, 8:20 am

rayjay
The headlines are that some agencies think it developed naturally with low level confidence of that belief.

Here''s what I've read.
"All the agencies in the intelligence community, though, had low confidence in either of the Covid-19 origin theories -- a lab accident or natural emergence --"
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/24/politics ... index.html

But I suppose it would be worth waiting for the actual publication rather than jumping on your favorite (and apparently mistaken if CNN is accurate) headline.

rayjay
By calling it a conspiracy theory you are equating it with us not really landing on the moon or H. Clinton involved in pedophilia.


Definition: A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful groups, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable.

Pompeo came out with the original claims about a "lab leak" or worse. As the recent comprehensive probe indicates with apparently little or no real evidence. The very definition of a "conspiracy theory"
Why? To deflect from the disastrous response to Covid 19 by his administration.

Freeman's insistence on listing his speculative questions as if they represent a path to truth, when all the resources of the American Intelligence community haven't made progress... is natural for a conspiracy theorist. No simple answer is ever enough. No authority can ever be correct if it is agreeing with his pre conceived notion.

rayjay
It's weird to play the Trump card here


Not when its his administration that created the "conspiracy theory" and refused to allow the scientific inquiry to be conducted without interference. And if you don't think leaping to accusations with little or no evidence isn't interference than you have another think coming...Anyone who expected a society like China to react to his claims in any other way than they have isn't aware of anything about China's governance or history.

Rayjay
It's because China has not been forthcoming with information and has done what it can to hinder the investigation.


What do you think they would do once Pompeo made his accusations? Honestly? The communists are going to invite US scientists in to find the truth? AS it was the Wuhan facility had western scientists working there and over time the scientific community was fairly open. There was always a chance that a more polite approach through the scientific community, to ensure that level 4 lab protocols are sufficient around the world, might have produced a result. But no...... Pompeo, Trump and the "wuhan virus".

I understand today that Biden's administration is calling for an investigation "BY THE US" into the origins of Covid 19.
Now, if that's true, its the height of arrogance, and establishes pretty well that the US really isn't serious about getting to the truth.

I suspect that may be because the lingering doubt about a lab leak plays into the US geopolitical competition with China. They really don't want China to cooperate at this point...

You want a theory? The US intelligence knows, or at least strongly suspects, the virus was a natural event and is playing up the conflict with China.
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Adjutant
 
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Post 29 Aug 2021, 7:41 pm

Gosh, youre so condescending Ricky in defending a totalitarian regime that commits human rights abuses. RJ is a fair-minded individual and so am I. If you had made convincing arguments we would accept them. Everyone has an ego but you play the Trump biased against Asians card and the conspiracy card, and US trying to deflect card when you get frustrated at our arguments. And thats just annoying. I dont see RJ and I doing that; we're just makng arguments. And the Biden Admin is not out to get China on this, please. They shut down the Trump probe and only restarted it after new evidence put pressure on them to do it. And the unredacted report doesnt indicate theyre trying to get China. As RJ said they have access to material we dont and there is disagreement in the intelligence community, but they certainly dont view the lab theory as being a conspiracy theory. But neither is there a
consensus. Usually if youre going after someone you have more of a consensus and less disagreement.

By the way, a summary of the report is out. The highest degree of confidence was moderate degree of confidence from one segment of IC community was for A LAB LEAK, four plus national intell segments plis intelligence councol said low degree of confidence for your theory; and three were not able to determine a cause with any degree of confidence. And the report said the only way they could come up with a definite opinion would be if China cooperated, which they havent been doing

The biggest objection from me originally was how China used its power to try and shut down scientific debate on the origin question. And contrary to your contention China tried to cover this up since the beginning, not just Pompeo blamed them. And it wouldnt be the US that got access; it would be a team from the WHO.

Please try to make arguments without using the China bias card, the conspiracy card, and the the deflection card? Thats not actually evidence. I just asked you to explain facts; instead of trying to dispute the facts or explain them you played the conspiracy card. It gets tiresome.
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Post 22 Oct 2021, 12:06 pm

Here's a particularly powerful statistical analysis providing a high degree of confidence that Covid-19 originated in a lab.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-c ... os7&page=1

Within months of the SARS-1 and MERS outbreaks, scientists found animals that had hosted the viruses before they made the jump to humans. More than 80% of the animals in affected markets were infected with a coronavirus. In an influential March 2020 paper in Nature Medicine, Kristian Andersen and co-authors implied that a host animal for SARS-CoV-2 would soon be found. If the virus had been cooked up in a lab, of course, there would be no host animal to find.

Chinese scientists searched for a host in early 2020, testing more than 80,000 animals from 209 species, including wild, domesticated and market animals. As the WHO investigation reported, not a single animal infected with SARS-CoV-2 was found. This finding strongly favors the lab-leak theory. ...

A coronavirus adapts for its host animal. It takes time to perfect itself for infecting humans. But a pathogen engineered via accelerated evolution in a laboratory using humanized mice would need no additional time after escape to optimize for human infection. In their Nature Medicine paper, Mr. Andersen and colleagues pointed to what they considered the poor design of SARS-CoV-2 as evidence of zoonotic origin. But a team of American scientists mutated the stem of the coronavirus genome in nearly 4,000 different ways and tested each variation. In the process they actually stumbled on the Delta variant. In the end, they determined that the original SARS-CoV-2 pathogen was 99.5% optimized for human infection—strong confirmation of the lab-leak hypothesis.
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Adjutant
 
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Post 23 Oct 2021, 1:56 am

Interesting. Pretty much what Redfield said: natural viruses don't come out fully ready to infect humans. And we know that the SARS virus wasn't. It takes a while and of course our immune systems get uses to the virus too. But when a virus is trained to infect humans and we have no experience with the virus...disaster. This dang gain-of-function research.
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Statesman
 
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Post 26 Oct 2021, 1:06 pm

Its not surprising that the same publication, and the same journalist who pushed weapons of mass destruction in Iraq are pushing this oft debunked theory by Muller (climate science denier) and Quarry (pathologist with a book on "how to survive Covid").

https://respectfulinsolence.com/2021/06 ... cy-theory/

from the above article.

First of all, CGGCGG is not all that uncommon. It has been found in other coronaviruses, for example, some isolates of MERS coronavirus. Furin cleavage sites are also found in a number of other coronaviruses, as discussed in this recent review article. Although uncommon, furin cleavage sites are not so uncommon in coronaviruses as to be any sort of strong evidence of laboratory manipulation.

Moreover, there are known mechanisms by which such a sequence could have arisen. This has been discussed extensively on Twitter, including the fact that this nonsense from Quay and Muller is not new and was debunked many months ago:
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Post 25 Nov 2021, 7:39 am

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... et/620794/

A fair treatment of the coincidence of the lab leak theory vs. the coincidence of the Huanan Market theory.