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Adjutant
 
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Post 13 Mar 2019, 1:23 pm

So much for "equal opportunity". No need to actually work for something...if you can just buy it. A college degree is just a commodity. It's actually hard to envision how someone could even attempt to pull this off without the expectation that people can be bought. Where is the obligation towards the common good? We have a president who furthers his own financial interests over that of the country, tax cuts for the weathly, and billionaires who are incredulous if there is any raising of taxes on their enormous wealth. Meanwhile, 80% of the country lives paycheck to paycheck, we refuse to ensure healthcare for all, and we send soldiers all over the world from on average less advantaged households to risk life and limb. Somehow, I think, we need more of a balance between the individual and the common weal. Rampant selfishness...results in things like wealthy parents trying to buy a privileged pathway for their kids.
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Post 14 Mar 2019, 6:16 am

freeman3 wrote:So much for "equal opportunity". No need to actually work for something...if you can just buy it. A college degree is just a commodity. It's actually hard to envision how someone could even attempt to pull this off without the expectation that people can be bought. Where is the obligation towards the common good? We have a president who furthers his own financial interests over that of the country, tax cuts for the weathly, and billionaires who are incredulous if there is any raising of taxes on their enormous wealth. Meanwhile, 80% of the country lives paycheck to paycheck, we refuse to ensure healthcare for all, and we send soldiers all over the world from on average less advantaged households to risk life and limb. Somehow, I think, we need more of a balance between the individual and the common weal. Rampant selfishness...results in things like wealthy parents trying to buy a privileged pathway for their kids.


This is exactly why I have only wanted test scores used as criteria for college entrance. There should not be any other! Otherwise the system is open for graft and malfeasance.

There should not be ANY name, sex, race, monetary status, or nationality on the forms. It should be only a SSN and the student/family is responsible for payment via loans or personal funds.

The college admission system is using the criteria to pick who they want, and this is what happens. If they are allowed to pick based upon what they are looking for, whether that be privilege, equality, social justice, or whatever; then the outcome should not be catching us unawares. Selection based on anything other than standards is wrong.

If it is desired to allow the college system to select based upon a criteria they desire we should not be surprised that this is the result.
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Post 14 Mar 2019, 9:58 am

Just using test scores and grades gets a certain sort of student. Are those students who max out on test scores and grades necessarily the ones who are most talented, the most creative, the most imaginative--the ones who will wind up contributing the most in terms in developing new technologies, coming up with new ideas, creating new art, music, literature? I doubt it. Yes, there is a risk of corruption in giving administrators the power to choose students based on selective criteria, but marginal differences in objective scores should not exclude our most talented people from the best universities just because they are not the kind of people who are perfect on test scores and grades.
Last edited by freeman3 on 14 Mar 2019, 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post 14 Mar 2019, 9:59 am

I'm baffled as to how wealthy people are committing crimes to get their kids into school. One would think their would be places where money would be the one and only way to get in. :laugh:

https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny- ... story.html
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Post 14 Mar 2019, 10:01 am

Though putting USC and "one of our best universities" in the same sentence seems incongruous to me...
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Post 14 Mar 2019, 10:47 am

My point is that if you want to allow some personal criteria for admission, then you must be willing to accept the results that faulty people cause.

I am fine with either way, but the griping about the elite getting preferential treatment while a better qualified student is denied seems a bit one-sided when not all best qualified students are allowed entrance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_v._University_of_Texas_(2016)

I just want the standards or the lack thereof be applied universally.
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Post 15 Mar 2019, 6:16 am

bbauska
It should be only a SSN and the student/family is responsible for payment via loans or personal fund
s.

In a true meritocracy, students who could not personally afford the tuition would not be excluded. A system that offers free education up to a certain level, and then, for the part that most affects the persons potential, becomes a pay to play situation, is flawed. Ability to pay may eliminate some who merit the educational opportunity most...

I agree with you that the ideal is a completely gender, sexual orientation, and race blind system .... But that ideal would work only in a society that didn't already have within it, for centuries, ingrained advantages for some.
Has the legacy of institutional racism stopped affecting a persons opportunity in the modern USA? If not, balancing the injustices faced by minorities with a little affirmative action isn't wrong.
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Post 15 Mar 2019, 7:07 am

Ricky,

You are asking for a system where admission officials will make the decisions you desire, and then everything would be fine but until then you want to regulate the process.

There is inherent bias against many people in the world, not just the "modern USA". The world is more bias than you you give them credit for. (Perhaps you are just poking at the USA again.)

If you want admission officials to be able to make decisions on process, then the outcome of greed/agenda/familial decisions should not be surprising.
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Post 15 Mar 2019, 10:30 am

bbauska
There is inherent bias against many people in the world, not just the "modern USA". The world is more bias than you you give them credit for. (Perhaps you are just poking at the USA again.)

This is an issue (college bribery scandal) that seems to be uniquely American.
Your reference earlier,
If they are allowed to pick based upon what they are looking for, whether that be privilege, equality, social justice, or whatever; then the outcome should not be catching us unawares. Selection based on anything other than standards is wrong.

is a poke at affirmative action in the American college system.... or am I mistaken?
BTW, I recognize that there is bias in many societies.But since we are talking about an American college scandal, its the history of racial and gender discrimination in the US that matters. And the American history of institutionalized race discrimination is much greater and longer lasting than other western nations.

Anyways, I interpreted your comment as an shot at affirmative actions as such, and my comment is a defence of affirmative action.
As much as I desire a comprehensive meritocracy, I don't think a pure meritocracy can exist until all of the candidates are blessed with equal opportunity.
Until those conditions exist I'm okay with certain minorities, or perhaps even identified persons, having a bit of an edge in the selection process. (Affirmative action). The college scandal, and the issue of legacy admissions, is a demonstration of how far from a meritocracy the system is....

As for the application of human beings in college selection... We allow judges to make appropriate calls in criminal cases... As the Chinese saying goes: "To ensure justice, you need a wise judge".
Yes, this can be open to corruption. But I'm okay with a "wise judge" making a nuanced decision, despite this possibility . The alternative of leaving it to some algorithm, means you end up with people gaming the algorithm which limits the diversity of successful applicants.
If there is one thing we should learn from nature, its that diversity leads to success for a species.
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Post 15 Mar 2019, 12:11 pm

I meant no shot at Affirmative Action. Just the response to unequal treatment that benefited rich kids. There is such surprise about unequal treatment, but no problem with unequal treatment that benefits the agenda of whatever group.

I find it sad and hypocritical that the media is up in arms about the scandal, but are blind to the inequality in the system as it is. ALL people have bias. Lets just be real about that. Your blanket statements about Republicans bear that out.

I just want the merit based admissions or open bias admissions. Anything less is just prefering one bias over another, and it is hypocritical.