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Post 22 Jun 2017, 11:02 am

bbauska wrote:I thought it was you before coffee DF. :angel:


Nah, I'm not that coherent before coffee, and not that patient after it.
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Post 22 Jun 2017, 11:18 am

freeman3 wrote:You're right--there are limits to what we can do to protect US citizens abroad. But there also should be limits to what we will tolerate other countries doing to our citizens.


There are no easy or good answers. What happened to that boy was horrible. Americans should not go to North Korea. But what you're suggesting is out of proportion. What's going on in Turkey is worse than Korea, because there are so many more victims. Turkey is completely messed up and what are we gonna do about it? What can we do about it? I don't know, but the best answer is to stay out of their prisons.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/an-american-in-turkeys-prisons-in-for-a-crime-no-in-for-a-dollar
Last edited by geojanes on 22 Jun 2017, 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post 22 Jun 2017, 11:49 am

I don't think the answer...is for Americans not to travel anywhere but advanced Western countries because US government will do nothing if they are mistreated. The Warmbier is at the absolute extreme level of mistreatment. Don't go to Turkey, don't go to Africa, China, the Middle East because if something happens...it's your fault. Some level of coercive pressure is warranted I think when US citizens get clearly mistreated. Of course, that has to be weighed against larger interests...but I don't think the only option is to beg and plea. The way I see it...if you're a US citizen...you travel with the backing of the US government behind you. And it should be a major concern of our State Department when US citizens get detained overseas. And in clearly wrong cases...we should take appropriate steps beyond just meekly making inquiries. Publicity is one pretty cost-free way of putting pressure. Whether further steps should be taken requires a case-by-case assessment but economic retaliation might be appropriate in certain cases. I think the Warmbier case qualifies.
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Post 22 Jun 2017, 11:57 am

freeman3 wrote:but economic retaliation might be appropriate in certain cases. I think the Warmbier case qualifies.


I agree. The first post you were talking about military retribution.
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Post 22 Jun 2017, 6:08 pm

freeman3
Frankly, I think NK will back down because they are not suicidal. If they are stupid enough to try and bomb Seoul because we implement economic sanctions...then that's on them. We cannot tolerate them doing they want for fear they will retaliate in a hugely disproportional way.


These are the current sanctions on North Korea...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions ... orth_Korea

What else do you propose?
Are they having any affect?

freeman3
And I was not cavalier about Seoul being bombed by artillery. Where did I say that or where did my words imply that?

here
Look...it's a sad fact that Seoul is in the line of fire of a crazy regime. But we cannot let that determine our foreign policy


If US foreign policy concerning North Korea doesn't first and foremost take into primary consideration the close allies that are going to be majorly effected by any military action... then US policy is treating the South Koreans cavalierly.

The reaction to Warmbier in American media, and on this board is completely irrational.
Although North Korea does bear responsibility and there should be efforts to make them pay... you have to expect that they won't. Because the enormous pressure brought to bear on them so far has been fruitless and there isn't much left to increase pressure... Especially not by the US.

However, any effort that even remotely risks a conflict in which millions of Koreans would die would be criminal. It demonstrates a colonial attitude and a racist attitude. Don't millions of Koreans deserve more consideration than
Look...it's a sad fact that Seoul is in the line of fire of a crazy regime.


Geojanes is right.
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Post 23 Jun 2017, 5:41 am

Ricky:
Although North Korea does bear responsibility and there should be efforts to make them pay... you have to expect that they won't. Because the enormous pressure brought to bear on them so far has been fruitless and there isn't much left to increase pressure... Especially not by the US.


The Ricky Doctrine is defeatist. The US can pressure China -- which is happening -- and China can pressure NK.
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Post 23 Jun 2017, 7:01 am

Ray Jay wrote:Ricky:
Although North Korea does bear responsibility and there should be efforts to make them pay... you have to expect that they won't. Because the enormous pressure brought to bear on them so far has been fruitless and there isn't much left to increase pressure... Especially not by the US.


The Ricky Doctrine is defeatist. The US can pressure China -- which is happening -- and China can pressure NK.


This is the Ricky Doctrine in NINE seconds. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1YgGnfBNAqg
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Post 25 Jun 2017, 1:31 pm

Freeman

Seriously, Ricky, your post is so annoying I have a hard time responding in an even-keeled fashion. And it's not because you are making good arguments, either. You are really making bad arguments...and they are just friigin' annoying.


The fact is Rickyp is spot on. In fact, I stopped reading your ridiculous posts on this thread once I realized you were serious about Seoul.

1 million dead (conservative estimate given the 10 million who live there), an entire city obliterated on account of 1 curious tourist lacking self control? Sorry Freeman but you're nuts.
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Post 25 Jun 2017, 2:19 pm

You never say anything reasonable Dags so I think I will not bother responding to your posts any longer. If possible, I would request your not addressing any posts to me any longer. Thanks.
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Post 25 Jun 2017, 3:34 pm

Seriously Dag, what conflict avoids civilian casualties? There is a time or place for standing for what is right. It reminds me of the Star Trek episode "A taste of Armageddon" War is bloody. Believe me, I know. It is not a game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Armageddon

We can dicker back and forth about where that place is, but clearly N. Korea is out of line regarding Warmbier. It does require a response, no? That is why I suggested an embargo on those who trade with N. Korea.
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Post 25 Jun 2017, 3:42 pm

Bbauska,

Of course NK is out of control. And of course we need to do something. And of course what we are currently doing to reel them in is not enough.

But bringing about the nuclear destruction of Seoul which would cause millions of innocent people to die and bring untold suffering on account of this tragedy is not only insane but in some ways racist. And Freeman knows it. My guess is he's embarrassed that he suggested something so blatantly stupid.

And Freeman, if you say something irresponsible I will correct it I assure you. I would expect nothing less from anyone else here.
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Post 25 Jun 2017, 4:19 pm

Any response COULD cause the irrational leadership to escalate and commence fire against Seoul.

Does the fear of N. Korea responding irrationally preclude a response?

Freeman and I both agree. Something must be done, and the fear of response should not stop a nation from standing up for what is right. To do otherwise is cowardice.

I have seen enough of that by the US of late.
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Post 25 Jun 2017, 6:19 pm

Yes, the point is what is a reasonable response. Dags and Ricky seem to be arguing that the fact that North Korea can bomb Seoul makes any response in the Warmbier case impossible; I think Brad and I appear to agree that our response should be reasonable but that it should be independent of the fact that North Korea can bomb Seoul. We are the strongest power in the world; we do what is reasonable; if North Korea has an insane response...that's on them, not us. If we start factoring in that crazy regimes will act crazy then we give them a huge advantage. My guess is that they are crazy like a fox. They bomb Seoul and they're dead. It's literally suicidal for their leadership to do that. Therefore, I don't think they're going to do that. If it happens...I doubt Seoul will have anywhere close to a million casualties and Korea will be unified. We're dealing with a country that wants to develop an ICBM missile that can strike Los Angeles or Seattle (or sooner) Tokyo, Sidney. We need to stand in front of them and say...there and no farther. Getting walked over in the Warmbier case ain't helping our credibility.

As bad as Seoul getting bombed is...I guess I am a little more worried about LA getting hit by an ICBM. Or Seattle.
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Post 25 Jun 2017, 6:22 pm

Affirmative on all.
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Post 30 Jun 2017, 7:45 am

Yes, the point is what is a reasonable response.


Agreed. Willingness to risk the bombing of Seoul over this specific incident is unreasonable. Period.

Dags and Ricky seem to be arguing that the fact that North Korea can bomb Seoul makes any response in the Warmbier case impossible;


Nope. Never stated. This is a characterization of what was said in an attempt to mask your comment...

Look...it's a sad fact that Seoul is in the line of fire of a crazy regime. But we cannot let that determine our foreign policy


I never said, nor to I think Rickyp said that responses were not possible. Only unreasonable responses that would risk the destruction of an entire city of innocent people.

"It's a sad fact..." thanks for the crocodile tears, said all of Seoul.