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Post 12 Jun 2012, 4:10 am

a mediocre game by two mediocre teams.
England salvaged a draw simply because a) England played defensibly like it was Greece and b) France lacks the player that could create offensive attacks.
Funny thing when you hear those damn brit commentators bashing Greece all the time for its defense, but cant see the truth when it comes to their own team.
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Post 12 Jun 2012, 4:45 am

Personally, I think that's the way we have to approach tournaments. We don't have that many brilliant attacking players, but we do have a squad that can be drilled defensively and can use set pieces. So I ignore the one-eyed commentary frankly. It's how Chelsea won the CL (or rather, didn't lose the game in open play) and while it may not always look pretty, it's results that matter.

Sweden and Ukraine themselves looked mediocre, and more vulnerable at the back. Sweden were reliant on Ibrahimovic for most of the game, and Ukraine are inexperienced apart from old boys Voronin and Shevchenko. Both of those games are there for England to take. Still, I think we have a problem with who we have available (and Rio would not be any great salvation, give n his fitness record over the last season).

Indeed if you look at the games so far, most have been fairly even with goals coming as the result of luck and error, rather than many moments of brilliance.
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Post 12 Jun 2012, 8:14 am

ruff did you watch the US qualifying game against those giants from the caribean?
Impresssed?
It occurred to me the other day, as Toronto FC unloaded Aaron Winters the befuddled head coach that the architect of Toronto FC's choice for structure, coached and manager was Jurgen Klinsman. (They actually fired Winter after Klinsman visited with FC ownership when in Toronto for the US Canada friendly. LIke they had to have Klinsman tell them that firing him was acceptable?)
Makes one wonder about how well Klinsman will do as manager of the US nationals....
Pretty important game tonight.
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Post 12 Jun 2012, 8:28 am

a mediocre game by two mediocre teams.
England salvaged a draw simply because a) England played defensibly like it was Greece and b) France lacks the player that could create offensive attacks.
Funny thing when you hear those damn brit commentators bashing Greece all the time for its defense, but cant see the truth when it comes to their own team.


If England had pushed forward all gung ho looking for goals and been caught 3 times on the break I'm quite sure you'd have been on here criticising how awful England are at defending. Instead we set up defensively to counteract a more skilful team and not only are England mediocre but so are France ! Is it that hard to accept that England went out there with a gameplan and stuck to the task well ? The French team included Benzema, Nasri, Ribery and Cabaye, with Evra and Debuchy as great attacking fullbacks and yet they were reduced to continually hitting in shots from distance. These are not mediocre players, so if they were made to look that way then it shows that Hodgson has set England up to be very hard to beat. So far as I'm concerned this is a good start, and points to a way we can potentially manage to beat the 3 or 4 sides who are clearly better than us.

We will need to come forward more against Sweden and Ukraine though, and that might be something we struggle with since Hodgson has obviously spent all of the limited time he's had in charge working on defensive drills.
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Post 18 Jun 2012, 7:54 am

Looks like Greece could do it after all. Not sorry to see the Russians out, frankly - good team; awful 'fans'; no boost for Tsar Putin - and we all love the underdogs. But with Germany in the next round it will be a politically charged very tough battle for Greece. Just like the bailout 'renegotiation' with the same opponents.

back on topic...

England are not looking great, but are certainly pulling together as a team and producing some excellent moments. All three gaols against Sweden were nice to watch. The defence (and Terry in particular) are looking a bit shaky at times, but I think they have enough to overcome Ukraine and stop them as long as Shevchenko is given a hard time. Next round could see a repeat of the Chelsea-Barca tactics if England meet Spain. I have to say, I can't see Redknapp doing this well, and the signs are that Hodgson is winning players over.

Rooney coming back will hopefully mean concerns about Young (who has been out of position due to a missing forward) will reduce.
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Post 19 Jun 2012, 8:12 am

Randy, I don't think you should underestimate just how bad England were in the last WC and as a result how low confidence had been leading up to this tournament. Hodgson's achievement has been to get the team playing with a smile on their collective faces and a semblance of a gameplan in their heads. Both of these are massive improvements on the Capello regime that preceded him. I don't think he's been some kind of tactical genius or incredible motivator of men, but just to see an England team take the field with a plan and make substitutions with purpose has been refreshing.

But you're right of course, results have been more or less as expected. I wouldn't necessarily have expected to get a draw against the French but wouldn't have ruled it out either, and to narrowly beat Sweden isn't anything to get too excited by. I tyhink we should definitely be good for a point tonight at very least, and that would put us through. If we then get beaten by Spain then nobody will be too downhearted about it. All in a positive start to Hodgson's career as England boss, but nothing more than that.
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Post 19 Jun 2012, 9:43 am

ruff
I'm not at all sure where you're going with the diatribe agaisnt Klinsman or what if anything he could have had to do with Winter's firing. I'm content with the job he's doing, the results that he's getting, and the direction that the US team is heading in


And when Klinsman put together the management and the structure at Toronto FC, most here were optimistic as well....

Holt would have scored the same way Carrol did. (But of course we'll never know).
It was interesting to see Harry get the sack yesterday. I think the FA made the right choice and they should stick with Roy through thick and thin for at least 4 years.
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Post 19 Jun 2012, 9:45 am

Sweden are a bit of a jinx team - we'd never beaten them in a finals - so I for one was not expecting a win. France we've never beaten in the Euro finals and we have a poor history against in the last 10 years, so a draw was a good result there, too.

I don't think Hodgson is 'magic'. He's not a tactical genius or one for pushing a flair game. But what he does do is to coach and drill. Sometimes (Liverpool) that will fall flat. I was concerned that he may have similar problems with England, but so far not. Of course, the first whiff of failure and the press will be on his back.

We are better than two years ago, not because of better players but because of a better team ethos. Low expectations (for us) seem to have helped the squad relax a bit.

Tonight will not be easy, however. Luckily the gf has just called to tell me she's going out for chicken with her friend so I get the TV to myself for a couple of hours. :smile:
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Post 19 Jun 2012, 9:46 am

Holt may be as good as this Carrol chap, but he's not a patch on Carroll.
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Post 19 Jun 2012, 2:15 pm

I don't think it was the USA result that was the problem. It was the way we played in that game, and then the total morass of the Algeria game, followed by scraping past Slovenia.

Hodgson will not be scapegoated if we go out to Italy, unless the manner of it is really bad. Tonight we rode our luck (and that Ukraine shot went over the line, which is tempered by the likely offside nature of the pass), and it took Rooney a while to get warmed up.

On spelling, it was Ricky's missing 'l' in Carroll I noticed and was responding to. In fact, I can't see it spelled incorrectly in your post on this page, so I don't understand how you'd think it was about you. Not some kind of ego issue perhaps? :wink: Both of you seemed to have a problem with Defoe's name, but hey, some people can't take a joke.
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Post 20 Jun 2012, 1:44 pm

Surely we can keep this confined to the politics threads guys ? I quite enjoy the football threads and I'd hate to see it spoiled.

Anyway....

Randy, I wasn't intending to suggest that there's any shame in drawing with USA, who are a competent team with a decent tournament record. England's overall performance in the last WC was pretty dismal though. Yes, losing to Germany is forgivable, but the way we played in all three group matches was profoundly depressing and it seemed like there was no joy, or even enthusiasm, about our play throughout the tournament. The whole tone pof this campaign has been completely different, both on and off the pitch. In South Africa the players spent the whole time sulking in their hotel rooms playing Playstation and not wanting to be there.
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Post 21 Jun 2012, 5:31 am

Certainly Rooney's attitude seems vastly different to last time, perhaps because of the enforced break as much as anything. I would also say I don't think Sunday's game will be that bad. While both teams are more defencively focused, they will push up as well. Once a goal is scored the game will likely come alive, so hopefully one will be and it'll be early too.

Also, it would probably be a devious plan to needle Balotelli so he does something stupid. I would not condone such behaviour, of course.
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Post 21 Jun 2012, 8:00 am

Balotelli will likely start on the bench, and in any case needling him could well backfire. It could be the difference between him moping around with the face on or him getting fired up and playing a blinder.
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Post 21 Jun 2012, 11:20 am

Yeah I think it is a bit stereotypical to say the Italians only play small ball. Yes their team is defensively oriented, but they have some attacking flair as well and are just fine going forward. Their team now isn't as passive and boring as the 2006 world cup squad was.
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Post 24 Jun 2012, 12:16 pm

TMIB - I have to say I think you called it right. less than half and hour in and both sides have been playing positive football with both sides close to scoring in the first 5 minutes and a real end-to-end battle emerging. Perhaps relying on stereotypes is not always the way to go?

Balotelli did start and is dangerous, but England have not been giving him as much pressure as they could. Milner is having another good game (bloke in pub last night was telling me he was going to be one to watch), and Rooney has been playing from the whistle, so hopefully the match fitness and pace are not an issue.